20 - Not Enough for The Too Much: A Conversation with a Psychiatric Nurse about Severe Mental Illness

Anne and Alison process a heavy week of the loss of the life of loved one Kevin Elder, who had struggled with severe mental illness and substance use disorder. Anne compares his life with the life of her brother, John Romine. They interview another Kevin, who has chosen to keep his last name anonymous due to the nature of his work with psychiatric patients. Kevin Anonymous is a psychiatric nurse who sees some of the most intense mental health cases at the hospitals he's worked at. We talk about how the care for the people who are just "too much" for society is simply not enough—we are not offering true care to those most in need. We process the grief of having tried to help and love and finding that it wasn't enough. We talk about the strong link between child trauma, mental illness, and substance misuse disorder (addiction).

00:00 Intro with Anne and Alison

44:43 Interview with Kevin the psychiatric nurse

Latchkey Urchins & Friends Website.
What is schizophrenia? NAMI explains.
Audio engineering by Josh Collins.
Theme music is "One Cloud is Lonely" by Proxima Parada.

Show Notes:

• Cracked Up (movie)
• Hidden Valley Road (book)
• Messiah Complex
• Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs)
• A Bad Dream by Keane - song to cry and access grief
• Gregory Boyle and Homeboy Industries
• Pete Davidson and Borderline Personality Disorder
• Dialectical Behavioral Therapy
• Tightrope by Nicholas Kristof and Sheryl WuDunn (book)
• A River Runs Through It by Norman Maclean
• Running on Empty by Jonice Webb
• Case of man who shot 2 police officers in San Luis Obispo - LA Times
• Portugal's progressive drug treatment approach

“Each one of us here today will at one time in our lives look upon a loved one who is in need and ask the same question: We are willing to help, Lord, but what, if anything, is needed? For it is true we can seldom help those closest to us. Either we don't know what part of ourselves to give or, more often than not, the part we have to give is not wanted. And so it is those we live with and should know who elude us. But we can still love them - we can love completely without complete understanding.”― Norman Maclean, A River Runs Through it and Other Stories

Remembering Kevin Elder (1988-2022) and sending him with love on his next journey.

Transcript

This is an imperfect transcript generated by Otter.ai

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

kevin, drugs, people, schizophrenia, parents, aces, trauma, sexual abuse, listened, manic, living, world, love, friends, family, person, paid, relationship, job, mental illness

SPEAKERS

Kevin, psych nurse, Alison Cebulla, Anne Sherry

Alison Cebulla  00:06

Welcome to latchkey merchants,

Anne Sherry  00:09

friends. You didn't say All right, welcome. I know we missed that. All right.

Alison Cebulla  00:16

Okay. All right.

Anne Sherry  00:20

All right. All right.

Alison Cebulla  00:22

The best part about living in Austin, I lived there from 2015 to 2017 was like the chance that you might see Matthew McConaughey somewhere. I just want to tell you like that. I went to a UT football game once and he and he, you know, he was there in the crowd, and they kept kind of panning the camera to you know, it's like it was thrilling to just think like, oh, Matthew McConaughey is out here somewhere.

Anne Sherry  00:44

Yeah, I think I like him. i He's wacky. Yeah, I kind of take him. Yeah, yeah. As far as I know of him. So

Alison Cebulla  00:53

totally. Anyways, Lisa Chen. XOR. Is a latch Karen, she is here. Yeah. Well, we assume if you're born in the late 60s, we just assume that the type of parenting but he wrote a book where he talked about his family is very dysfunctional.

Anne Sherry  01:07

very dysfunctional, but also what I remember and maybe getting another movie star mixed up in this but like a lot of talking a lot of drama, a lot of fighting,

Alison Cebulla  01:15

right. That's what my mom read his biography. That's what she said. And she said that his takeaway was that there was a lot of fighting, but there was a lot of love and she was like, someone is rationalizing their abuse.

Anne Sherry  01:32

And I do think, you know, like, the love piece is

Alison Cebulla  01:35

fighting for your relationships. hashing it out. There's, there's, there's layers there. So I I'm Alison Cebulla. And I man, Sherry. And we always forget to introduce our phrasal verbs. Do we are here we matter? Yeah.

Anne Sherry  01:53

I feel like you should know it already. Or something like, yeah, I don't know. Okay.

Alison Cebulla  01:58

Yeah. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for tuning into our podcast. Like, yes, you might be a new listener, you know, you mean, or you might have listened to one or two or all this is our 20th episode. Can you believe it?

Anne Sherry  02:10

Oh, my God. No, I recommend you start listening now. Because when you find us and five years, when Oh, fuck, how am I going to go back and listen to all five years. So go ahead and start now is would be my recommendation.

Alison Cebulla  02:29

Okay, what am I very absolutely one of my very best memories in my life is when and don't tell my old boss that I said this, but I worked at this job at Cal Poly, the universe here. Just call her up, call Susan up and tell her that they just didn't give me enough work. And it was like very stressful to them when I asked for more work because they didn't have any more work. And this is a government job through through and how

Anne Sherry  02:56

do you not know how to waste fuckin time? No.

Alison Cebulla  03:00

I'm gonna tell you Okay, okay, I listened to like, all three years of my favorite murder like that one summer, it was so fucking fun. And there was this, there's this huge, gorgeous Botanical Garden on campus. And they literally had no work for me. And they really promoted people to like, get up and walk around, you know, go for a walk, you know, promote health or whatever. And so as long as I was like, doing all my work, I would just get up and not come back for like hours. Like I would just go on a long walk. Listen to a couple episodes of my favorite murder. Come back. You know what I mean? Like I was so it was such good times. Yeah, really good times.

Anne Sherry  03:43

Completely. Yeah. So. So I think what I hear you saying is we should plug government should be a sector that we should really try to get into government workers have all kinds of fuckin time on their

Alison Cebulla  03:55

lowest fucking paid job of my life. Okay. Okay. Don't don't work for the government. Okay? No, I'm pro government. Okay. So it was it was a very chill job. And like, the pension was really good. Like, the pay was low. But the pension was good. The structure was good. The training was good. The HR was amazing. Look,

Anne Sherry  04:16

there's perks I get. I'm at the age where I'm starting to meet the people who started their government jobs at 18 or 19. Talking retired with like, seven $8,000 a month and whatever. Like, if I didn't if I hadn't done active military after my ROTC full ride scholarship if I hadn't turned into a little hippie in Boulder and quit I could have gone to the Iraq War too, though, so I don't know. You don't know what

Alison Cebulla  04:43

just yet don't know what's gonna happen in your life. Okay, wait, you don't have to be happy. Fuck that. Be where you want to be. Oh

Anne Sherry  04:53

my god. Okay,

Alison Cebulla  04:55

okay. I think we're like a little manic because cuz we know that we have a weighty thing to talk about. I know, and I'm already tearing up, I'm already gearing up. So slow down. I'll just yeah, let's take a deep breath. And I just want to say that I really appreciate like your presence and your depth of feeling on this on this issue. And like, Thanks for showing up for me this week. You bet. You bet. Really, really, really appreciate it. I really have felt that you've been holding space for my pain. And it means a lot.

Anne Sherry  05:31

Oh, I could always do this is 20 plus years of therapy that because somebody's been paying, I'm like, either let's positive reframe, or, yeah, I have to disappear you or you're good. Yeah. You know. So thanking whoever. So thank you for sharing that to me. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, taking it in.

Alison Cebulla  05:54

So. So I'm just going to jump in and share that. What happened this past week is that on Tuesday night, my mom got a knock on her door by the police. And they told her to call the coroner's office. So someone had died. And, and, and the person who died is a person that was in my life. I met him in 2016. And we were in a romantic real a very kind of tumultuous romantic relationship for a couple of years. And then, so he was that he's an ex boyfriend, then he really struggled with a lot of mental health issues. And, and you know, I was kind of recovering from my own major depressive disorder. So it really kind of fit really well. He was really, his symptoms were really manic. And what I realized about that relationship was that he helped me access my emotion, my more intense emotions, because I could see his he wore his on his sleeve, I could see, I could see him living his. And so I was in this kind of deep depression. And he really, even though it was like, really hard, and often one sided, he really kind of pulled me out in his own manic way. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? Yeah. So but he had substance misuse disorder. So he was he was using drugs. And that's not manageable at all. So you know, the first time he relapsed, it was like, Okay, let's see about this. But then by the time it was like, he relapsed again, and again, it was like, Okay, this is actually a relationship. This is done. But my parents really cared about him a lot. He's such a sweet, sweet guy, his name, his name is was Kevin elder. And so they kept I was like, Mom, that's fine. You can be a point of contact, like I have to cut off contact with him. And so he had been living with her for a couple months in 2019. So that the police had his address, her address on file, so they stopped by they were trying to reach his parents. They found his parents he had I talked to his brother last week, he had died of an overdose in a hotel room here in San Luis Obispo. And someone has close. Oh, yeah, I mean, he was like, a couple miles away.

Anne Sherry  08:09

Yeah, god. Wow.

Alison Cebulla  08:12

Um, and we had been prepared for this moment, because he really had been living his life like he just had been lit on fire, just absolutely running around. Very delusional. Lots of just lots of crazy stuff going on in his head just couldn't, couldn't sit down couldn't just couldn't access the healing that he needed. We really encouraged him to take the anti psychotic drugs that he had been prescribed. He never did take those. And I'm, there's I just have a lot of anger about our systems, which we discuss today with our guest who's another Kevin, he's an anonymous, anonymous last name, Kevin because of his work. And this is an amazing interview. Yeah. With with Kevin Kevin, the psychiatric hospital nurse. And today and we talk about the Kevin of mine who, who just passed away and the failure of the systems to care for people with major mental illnesses.

Anne Sherry  09:18

Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and I still don't know how, I don't know a readiness or there's parts of me that struggled to talk with emotion or feeling around my older brother because I would love to say that things are getting better. He was born in 65. I don't know what happened. But the mental illness came on at some point, you know, combination of trauma, mental illness, early substance use, who knows what kind of is there sexual abuse? I don't think there was physical abuse, but certainly emotional trauma.

Alison Cebulla  09:54

And what was the name of your brother, John? John, right. Okay.

Anne Sherry  09:59

Yeah, and he He was such a beloved person in many ways I could not ever Fathom because how people are like your brother, so cool, he will give you the shirt off his back. And you know, just that typical thing you often hear with people with a lot of trauma. Yes, they will give away anything. They're the

Alison Cebulla  10:18

trauma response. Like, we just want you that $100 Patagonia jacket, you gave it to another homeless person.

Anne Sherry  10:28

So many ways, I think it's so it's something we need to learn from just that level of giving that level of seeing that level of like, What's mine is yours. You know, I mean, on some level, that's some Jesus that shit.

Alison Cebulla  10:42

I know. But that was part of his that was part of Kevin's schizophrenia was that he thought he was he thought he was a messiah. Yeah, that's not and I was like, yeah, yeah, no, it's I feel that a lot of people with schizophrenia have that particular delusion, because here's my theory. Because so So two years ago, you know, I produced that series to promote the film cracked up the Darrell Hammond story about his trauma, which I talked to the film director about. She was like, Well, I was telling her about, about Kevin, the one that just passed away and his schizophrenia and she was like, Well, what were symptoms, you know, and I was like, well, I'll just like a lot of conspiracy theories, a lot of Messiah thinking. And she was like, okay, she goes, that's yes, that that's, that's what I have experienced that people that she got to know making this film about schizophrenia have also had, like, Yeah, this is just common.

Anne Sherry  11:35

Yes. Yeah. There was some psychotic disorder going on. I don't know. I think he was diagnosed, there was so much of everything. Like, you know, affective, yeah.

Alison Cebulla  11:47

Is probably also at Kevin had if you're saying that's borderline symptoms, too.

Anne Sherry  11:52

Yeah, yeah. And the psychosis and the mania and ways to sort of manage it, but it was there was any lot a fair amount of violent tendencies as well. Lots of saying he's gonna hurt people and you know, grudges that he could never fulfill, like, something that was done to him set his light. I mean, just I think it's parts of him that were looking like, why are things so shitty for me? And there's okay, I look around.

Alison Cebulla  12:19

Yeah, I have questions for you. So but one second, because I just want to say that based on the film, and you know, talking to a lot of experts in the cracked up film about about schizophrenia, schizophrenia can be a trauma response, I don't think it has to be, but it looks like it's like, from the research. It's, there's a DNA component, like, you have to have the DNA to get it and you know what I mean, but then it has to be environmentally triggered to like, awaken and like, show itself. So there's both um, that was basically from the summary from the book, Hidden Valley Road, which did you read it? Did not read it? Don't just don't, everyone, anyone who's listening like just don't, it's horrific. Okay. So much sexual abuse happening in this. It's like a family that had 12 Kids and like, eight of them had schizophrenia. Gee, yeah. Maybe reading? I don't, it's terrible. Okay. Yeah. And so, he also

Anne Sherry  13:17

was type one diabetic, that that was 10 or 11, you know, and then my family just closed the doors. My parents, we just didn't talk about anything. So we didn't, you know, I kept eating sugar stuff, and we didn't help him out. So I think that was always a pain of his as well. You know, the Messiah

Alison Cebulla  13:34

thing to me is like, your brain is tricking you into thinking that you're really here for purpose, because it's a delusion that I personally relate to, which is why when I saw it, and Kevin, I didn't run away, I was like, that is so familiar, I want to get to know that part of you. Because I need to get to know that part of myself. I really feel that I entered the world with a slight Messiah Complex of like, that I almost still have where I'm like, why do I still work for low paying nonprofit jobs, you know, of like, I need to, I just need to take care of myself. But it's like I my, the way that my brain coped with the world, or with my world was to say, Oh, I'm here to save people or something. It was like a weird, it's just, and so that's, to me, some of the delusions is like your childhood is so fucking painful, that you have to invent this new reality so that you can get through it. And then the new reality that you invent, keeps you safe and happy and healthy. But then as you get into adulthood, it doesn't work anymore, because you need to be in the real world with the rest of us. So that that Messiah thing is like, well, since no one cares about me and childhood, I will invent this thing in by which I'm so important to the whole world. So I have questions for you about John because I know that Kevin's aces score was like an eight or a nine out of 10.

Anne Sherry  14:54

Yeah. So to do it again for I'd have to look at it. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla  14:59

well So let's look at um, let's look.

Anne Sherry  15:04

I mean, I was in such the way that I survived him is I was in such opposition, I had to hate him, you know, like, because I needed the our family felt so chaotic when with the way that he was in the world that I decided to be captain of everything good in school, totally. Like, you know, I don't know, some try to ascend the heights of Spartanburg aristocracy, which is we need to do a thing on caste systems in the south, or maybe they exist. Okay, I would love to do that. He taught societies and bullshit that still goes on. And so all these subtle cues that you are not one of us, you are totally of us. Yeah, but I like proximate. So it was like, as long as I'm normal or doing this, but it was there was just this rage. I think it was rage. It was just rage. And that thing I was talking about the quote from Yellowstone the way that we have to hate something else. So we don't hate ourselves, you know, so that being able to turn inward. That was my final, like, big shift in therapy was like, Why do I hate so much? Sure, there's a lot to hate. But jeez, it's exhausting. And it's kind of weird.

Alison Cebulla  16:27

Okay, that song, that song that I sent you? Because I was like, Hey, do you want to just have a really good cry about Kevin dying? So the song I sent you was a bad dream by the British sad, sad rock band Queen. had, um, the line in there. The line in there that has always stuck with me since this album came out in 2006 is baby I'm a man and I was born to hate. Hmm. It just really always gets me of how much we're born to hate in this world. And it brings me so much grief. It brings me to tears every time. So if you want to have a good cry, just keen. Me Yeah. A bad dream. Holy shit. You will be sobbing I promise. Yes.

Anne Sherry  17:15

Completely. Oh. Some of this too, though. Just I thought it was getting you know, I do think thing. I always with my Enneagram seven type is positive reframe like things are getting better, right? Maybe in some ways? Yes. But I don't know. There was no they weren't. They weren't identifying kids. He needed help. From day one. He was one of those kids that will identify I'm gonna

Alison Cebulla  17:37

read the tan aces because I have questions like if you're seeing like, he didn't have aces and he was super insane. I'm sure I can answer his aces. Okay, let's, for our listeners, you don't have to, like, you know, got whatever, you can just tally them up or whatever, like over there. I'll say one

Anne Sherry  17:55

or zero. Yeah, like, Okay, you had to have

Alison Cebulla  17:59

physical abuse, which I count speaking to me because that's those are some of my most terrifying memories. So to me, I'm like, that's an ace for me. Okay, sexual abuse, verbal abuse. physical neglect. emotional neglect. A family member who is depressed or diagnosed with other mental illness, and I think it kind of includes if you think your parents had went undiagnosed? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. A family member who is addicted to alcohol or other substance. And to me, I always interpret this as did your parents talk about things, or did they have a drink? Like, that counts as an ace to me? Okay. Okay. Um, a family member who is in prison. I'm witnessing a mother being abused. I personally know families where the mother was the abuser. So to me, I always think it needs to go both ways. Did you witness physical violence between your parents? Yeah. And then losing a parent to separation divorce or death. And there's lots of other traumas, but those

Anne Sherry  19:11

out I know, I have a question mark, question mark. And maybe two. Do you know like you two aces. I think so. Yeah. I have no Yeah, I mean, I can't. There could have been sexual abuse. Like we had the it's the 70s You were left you went to weird places you were left with I don't know questionable baby shower. There's there wasn't any background checks. I don't think so. Oh, yeah. This

Alison Cebulla  19:39

is like the babysitter thing is that as I've gotten to know, my friends, better as adults, like the ones that I had when I was younger, like as you know, K through 12. So many of my especially male friends were sexually abused by their male babysitters. This is like a whole thing where I was like you and you You and you want the fun. So that's a real fucking thing.

Anne Sherry  20:04

Yeah, I think they were I do remember, glimpses of like, where I it was, again the 70s Matt and I being shut out of places or we walked in on something. And John was in there and they were like, get out, you know, so Oh, some sexual abuse, or they were they were doing drugs early or trigger warning. Um, yeah. So but these so, yeah. And then on top of that, you just don't talk about anything.

Alison Cebulla  20:35

You never asked him later in life?

Anne Sherry  20:38

Why not have a relationship ever? Ever? Like, tell me why? I don't know. I think I think he hated me from day one. Like I was three and a half years younger and he had my dad was gone to Vietnam for a full year of his young life. I think that fucked him up. I think he had a really my, what I have pieced together that he had a really solid doting childhood from like six months to a year and a half. And then my dad came home from Vietnam and like, within days, or a week they were and you know what my cousins might be able to fill in some of this they my parents took off to another army base or something. So he was just like, you know, you just this happened. I hear this in therapy a lot to like, these moves. It's like, kids don't feel anything just were gone by, you know, it's not this preparation. It's like, Get over yourself. We're getting we're going to a better life or we're. Yeah, so none of the grief work. So I think he was a deeply emotional person. Okay, who knows? Yeah, what I've the other pieces, I think it's some of those don't have what we call managers, right? Like good managers to say. Perfection is industriousness doing well in school or what you know, where you can just turn it on. And like, I'm just gonna dig in, and I'm gonna figure this out, even if I have a lot of ACEs scores or whatever. It's a, it's still a trauma response, you know, perfectionism. And

Alison Cebulla  22:15

for you, which is what you had, yeah. Your response to it? Yeah. response

Anne Sherry  22:18

to it. I think he couldn't. I just don't think he had good managers. He was he was very emotional. I get the sense that he kept trying to be loved, you know, trying to speak about love, and it would grossed me out. Like he would fall head over heels in love with these people. And I was like, Ooh, disgusting. Pull it together. You know. I did have a therapist one time say to me, if he embodies, and they do, I don't know what the Claudia would know what this is. But you you turn it around the scapegoat in the family if you make all the qualities that they have. Yeah, it's a real thing. Yeah. The good what is it shining a light on the family and he was incredibly emotional. Very, that's exactly the truth telling what I

Alison Cebulla  23:02

was just saying about Gavin. Yeah, how I think he was, because for a while, this was the same era where I had that job where I listened to all of all of my favorite murder. Um, so, uh, so he, I think he we were living with my dad, my dad has kind of like this little studio apartment above the garage. So we were living there for a few months because I had accumulated all of this credit card debt when I lived in New York City, because I just didn't earn enough to survive there. So I had like, $14,000 in credit card debt. I paid it all off that summer, I worked three jobs. So um, this was a very healing time for me despite the fact that you know, we Kevin was like very tumult. It wasn't like a real relationship. Like he was obviously like, some emotional maturity issues, you know, but I, it was very healing for me, I paid off all my debt. I applied and got into grad school I left for grad school, like a lot of stuff.

Anne Sherry  23:57

Managers came online, right? Yeah, specifically, but together for my

Alison Cebulla  24:03

family, I think ended up as like it was like a little bit stressful for my parents to be like, What is going on? Like, who is this person? Why is this doesn't really seem like a relationship. He's kind of seems really like a child like what's going on, but they also really loved in. So it sounds like John had that too. Like Kevin was so lovable. He's just so there was like these parts of him that were just so cute and infectious and he just started talking about stuff and he was so excited about it. And I think that it opened up a lot of love in my family and a lot of I mean, a lot of compassion. Yeah. But like it softened my parents hearts like they just were like, they understood more about humanity in general after getting to know him and I think that is the gift of like, you like even like the Shakespearean like crazy person or just do you know, I mean, where it's like they show us what some of the they show us love and they show us with them in their weird way. I don't know if that because they're kind of so detached from reality or something that they see things. Like in even like in his most delusional when he was like in his schizophrenia and just going off every once in a while he'd say something where I'd be like, that is so truthy, like, yeah, it was so interesting to watch. I was like, he had delusions that there was like a higher meaning, right? And be like, No, you can't It's not like that. It's there's no higher meaning you're, you know, because they say like, it's it has to do with like, the amount of dopamine in your brain. And when you have more dopamine, you're seeing patterns everywhere. Yeah, you know, so he would always be seeing patterns everywhere. Like, Oh, I saw I saw 666 on a building and so we can't you know, now, everything that happened is you know, whatever is it, John, same

Anne Sherry  25:47

thing, like with the like, the just conspiracy stuff or the the health food stores you'd be friend those folks and supplements galore like this. Yeah, always trying to cure people like whatever was being funneled about how I'm completely like, none of this shit is working. You know, like, you put it to a placebo test and none of that shit cures anything for the most part, right? But he would just so emotional. I can remember I find I'll find these letters or things that he had written around and I like where he's just so angry. You know, he's like, you could tell mom to go fucking suck a dick. You know? And I'm like, you said that to them and then now funny long apology, you know, because she had done something and then this huge long I'm so sorry. data. So this sounds

Alison Cebulla  26:47

Jaya. I sounds like heaven. Holy crap. And yeah, it was person. I do knew him. Yes. Oh, yes.

Anne Sherry  26:58

And I when I find those things that just because of the lack of emotionality or what I decided it like three or something to turn off and say, Okay, that's not in this family, you know, so when I've, I don't know, been high or something or gotten, you know, really let myself think about it. I'm like, Holy shit, that dude. couldn't turn the love off. So he had to die on some level.

Alison Cebulla  27:21

Do you already die? Yeah, he

Anne Sherry  27:25

he was 47. Essentially, the diabetes type one diabetes killed, okay. Okay, like by having ketoacidosis whatever. Like he now granted she has type one diabetes, and they he didn't What do you mean, he never managed it? I mean, he tried or whatever. But he was always looking for a cure for it. So he wouldn't eat the right you know, he was he would go into to sugar too high or sugar too low. And they did a brain scan. And he was they said his brains like a 90 year old. It's not like he can't so so then it got to the point where his body couldn't even regulate the sugar. So he they stopped the ends. This is

Alison Cebulla  28:03

a great moment to bring in. So we interview Kevin Kevin the the nurse, not Kevin, who just passed away. This episode is all about Kevin's

Anne Sherry  28:12

and John.

Alison Cebulla  28:15

Was a Kevin Yeah. Who was a Kevin Yeah. Mike. Yes. So um, and so he we did this interview with him and it's it's it's an amazing interview and and I was like, Is there anything you retract? And he said just one thing he said I you know, I said in the interview, I say that drugs the drugs out there are bad he goes and I don't mean that they're that I don't support taking drugs. And so I told him I would put a disclaimer, pharmaceuticals This is pharmaceutical, pharmaceutical drugs, anti psychotics, antidepressants, whatever. And so we are we are pro pro prescription drugs, podcast. And so is Kevin the nurse Kevin, the nurse is pro drugs. He sent me this little phrase that his boss always says, and it's uh, don't hesitate. medicate. And that's their, that's their motto at the hospital because it's like, if someone's having an episode or somewhat, you know, just give them the meds they need. So that so that we can get into a space to heal. So I took Wellbutrin for years, I really miss it, I probably will go back on it soon. I'm pro fuckin drug just so that everyone knows. And the reason why we say sort of in a broader sense of drug, the drugs are bad is an is that they all have side effects. And they're all imperfect. You know what I mean? And so they're not the whole solution. And so he was kind of making a comment of like, yeah, people are pissed, you know, because the drug you know, the drugs. They're not they're just not a perfect solution. So that's all he was trying to say. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Anne Sherry  29:50

that's a good because I before I worked in crisis services, so Kevin, and I geek out a bit because I worked on the outside of assessing people in western North Carolina that were in crisis and do we send them to the hospital or not? So but I came my path was that sort of hippie shit, which I love body centered somatic therapy, but I was way out there into like, No man, we can just, you know, like if we find the right love, and if we can do all the healing, we don't need any external whatever's go work in crisis services where trauma is and you don't even have to do it there. But I became like, we've got to get just what you said. Like, you can't just love people out of this love is a Norton. But until we also have, oh, who told me this, I really like this. Like, we need stronger pharmaceuticals because the world that we are creating is stronger ways it's fucked up. You know, if we live all community and work the land maybe and were peaceful with each other or had good conflict resolution skills, or if you grew up in families where there was enough love you may not you might need a little you know, a little point oh, five flex Pro or something. But we got a harsh fucking world people with a lot of trauma.

Alison Cebulla  31:14

So wait, but what you said about but not being able to love people out of their mental illness. I just want to say that that perfectly sums up what I learned from my time with Kevin who just passed away. Because I and and my my family we really thought he had he's he's really struggling. And if we could just give him enough love, he'll, he'll stop struggling which is sort of the codependent mantra. I don't think I really kind of dislike the codependent, whatever, because

Anne Sherry  31:46

it's I don't like that either. Yeah, but we

Alison Cebulla  31:49

really, really thought like, we'll just give them stability. We won't shame him. We never shamed him. We never told him to get his shit together ever, ever. Yeah. But it didn't. It didn't work out. By the end. We were like, take your fucking beds, take your beds, take your meds, take your meds. Just take that Abilify. You will feel so good. Then go to therapy. We couldn't get him to do it. We just can't get him to do it. Yeah, you can't love someone out of a mental illness.

Anne Sherry  32:13

Mm hmm. And, and it's just so complex. You know, it is just so good. I would say Father, Who is it? who I love so much Homeboy Industries father, yes. Father, Greg Boyle. Listen to him. He has he talks about this. So well. He is working with some of the most traumatized people traumatized by the system by their families. And just love is a big part of it. But he wouldn't, you know, it's there's this way that people would keep coming to Homeboy Industries, and they had to, like almost exhibit we love you. We love you so much. We can't let you in. Right? Like until you can regulate a bit. Do you know they would come like we can't let you in because you're completely high. And I can't remember sort of the words he used. But like, the message was, we will always be here for you. And there's some measure of you got to be there for you. I think like, I don't anyway, read his trilogy. It is dawning I was like, Oh my gosh, but their whole community, like a family that's overwhelmed. doesn't know anything about mental illness is struggling, but I don't think this Yeah,

Alison Cebulla  33:28

he's not dealing. I mean, he's so he's people are coming out of prison people that have been in gangs, you know, and he's helping them see their own humanity. But he's not helping, like, the thing about your brother and Kevin who just passed away Kevin elder. This is really the full and of the sanity spectrum that they're on. They're on. They're on the full insanity side full right. And what we talk about with Kevin the nurse today is that there really isn't great treatment at all. We don't we don't actually really offer anything, you know, in in cracked up which I cannot recommend enough. It was on Netflix. I'm not sure if it still is but just Google cracked up the movie. It's the Darryl Hammond was a Saturday live actor in the 90s. He did like Bill Clinton. Did

Anne Sherry  34:20

you see? Oh, yeah, I did. I did. And when you see you watch the Saturday Night Live skits. You're like no way if you're my age. Yeah, I saw them when I did too.

Alison Cebulla  34:29

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But so so um, he finally got a psychiatrist who said, Let's just slow everything down and talk about what happened to you. Yeah. And no one had ever done that for him before. He'd been in and out of psychiatric hospitals had some substance misuse. This is all in the movie. And um, and had a very nurturing environment at Saturday live they talked about that, that that Lauren would just really took it upon himself. like I need to help this guy got him into a hospital and we're finally spot I know,

Anne Sherry  35:05

with Pete Davidson, you know, borderline person,

Alison Cebulla  35:09

I want to talk about that because okay, because Pete Davidson is doing so much good for everyone right now because I always say to people, like if you have borderline personality disorder, talk therapy is not the cure. And Keith Davidson is very vocal about doing the only scientifically proven treatment for Borderline Personality is dialectical behavioral therapy twice a week. And he, I've seen him go on these talk shows and say, that's what I'm doing. And I'm like, oh, people, you know, go get the actual treatment, you need the medically proven scientifically proven actual treatment. I can remember someone saying, you know, I read that mental health is linked to gut health. And so my boyfriend, I think he has borderline personality disorder, like any test, take some probiotics to help. And I was like,

Anne Sherry  35:54

there's so much. He's DBT twice

Alison Cebulla  35:57

a week. It's the only thing that's gonna work.

Anne Sherry  36:00

And I've done the magical thinking, I want to reframe stuff positively. I want a quick fix, because there's so much suffering and there just isn't one. There just isn't, you know, so, like,

Alison Cebulla  36:12

lack of Yeah, of scientific literacy around mental illness, and it drives me nuts and I'm on a mission, we're on a mission. That's why we're here. Yeah, the treatment that works, okay, we're kind of all over the place, but our big, big sad week and, um, and so with schizophrenia, so Okay, so, in cracked up, the doctor finally asked him what happened to you, and they get, they get to, you know, I'm not going to give it away, because you should definitely watch this movie, but that what Darrell Hammond has experienced at home, which no one would ever guess, because his mom was like a really nice church lady that everyone admired and respected in the community is that she was like horrifically horrifically abusing him. And I won't, I won't go into the ways. And this just created a split in his mind where he had to create this alternate reality and self medicate with drugs. So this movie, I think, more than anything else has helped me understand mental illness. It's just a beautiful, beautiful film. And I'm really, really commend Darrell Hammond's honesty and his ability to just put himself out there and be seen and help so many other people heal. Yeah, it's just, it's just amazing.

Anne Sherry  37:23

Yeah, the less silence around to this, the better because that's, that's what happened, you would just be left alone with your family that was just like it is just silence. We don't want to talk about it. Something must be wrong, you guys did something wrong. Somebody did something wrong. So whatever, it's just so much silence. So talk about it. That people know.

Alison Cebulla  37:47

And I'm having like, I'm having a lot of grief, I guess for all the messaging for both Kevin who passed away. And for everyone else like him. Of all the shaming messages in our society about Get your shit together, I just have so much grief about that makes me feel so sad. And I know he carried that weight with him. So one thing that's happening that I'm having a lot of grief around this week, is that I'm there's a Facebook group for everyone who knew him and I don't I don't know any of these. There's like 200 people in this group. I don't really know. I know, maybe three of them. You know what I mean? Like, I just didn't know that. His high school friends, his college friends, you know, I heard him talk about him. But the versions of Kevin that they knew are just so different from the version of Kevin that I knew. So he was like very popular in high school like class president star runner. And really had a like a lot of I'm seeing a lot of people it post in this group, you know, of like, you know, he was so funny. And he did all these assemblies wearing funny costumes. And he, you know, he was he was always I mean that I could see he's definitely adjuster. Yeah, but they're like, oh, and like he was someone posted, like he was so popular, but he was so kind to everyone or whatever. And it's like, the version of him that I got to know, was like post rehab, you know, post. The problem too, if you're like really traumatized, and then you start to use drugs is that you re traumatize yourself. So he had a number of encounters that were very, very, very traumatizing. He, there was a lot of sexual trauma as a child, and he had some retraumatization in that area as an adult, that he felt a ton of shame about. And so the version of him that I met was like, he knew who he had been, like, kind of at the top of his world. And he knew that he was now at the bottom. And there was so much grief, like he just couldn't face that I used to but I used to be he would always say I wish I could just go back. I wish I could go back.

Anne Sherry  39:54

Yeah. Yeah, I know. I

Alison Cebulla  39:56

just feel so sad. It is.

Anne Sherry  39:59

It is and there's no shortage of reminders that there's just no how like you if you fall off like I've talked about that that little pedestal or the thing that I don't know this some no one's there to you fall off the dock of like, what's normal is just well fucking swim then you know like there's no reaching down or reaching up or like, hey something's up you know so I don't either we're too busy to love too busy to to dramatize ourselves to care. The society's traumatizing, like just care is weak, or something or bootstrap bullshit and lots to unpack.

Alison Cebulla  40:38

Ingredients because yeah, oh, tight rope. Yeah, but, um, people do care. Like, I'm noticing that people do care, there's a lot of shaming, a lot of get your shit together and not have like, not believing that he had a mental illness I am noticing

Anne Sherry  40:54

subsidized care, like what? Yeah,

Alison Cebulla  40:57

well, no, but I mean, what I'm seeing is like there's a lot of individual care like people that really get it and do care, but we don't know what to do.

Anne Sherry  41:06

That's right. That's better said yeah. Um,

Alison Cebulla  41:09

so when I had made that post about him on my Facebook page, I posted with that lovely lovely quote from a river runs through it. Have Did you see that movie? A river? In the night? Yes. Yeah, so Norman Maclean is one of one of my one of my favorite authors and he's from Montana, which is where my parents are from so he kind of has a special place in our heart but um, I'm gonna say this quote and then we can kind of wrap up and go into the interview he says it this is a you know the Brad Pitt character who's who's a kind of a Kevin or a John you know, kind of wild it's kind of addicted to gambling and alcohol. And so the dad you know says at the I guess this is at the funeral service he says each one of us here today will at one time in our lives look upon a loved one who is in need and asked the same question who this is gonna make me cry? We are willing to help Lord but what if anything is needed? For this true we can sell them help those closest to us either we don't know what part of ourselves to give or more often than not the part we have to give is not wanted. And so it is those we live with and should know who eluded us, but we can still love them. We can love completely without complete understanding.

Anne Sherry  42:36

Oh wow. Yeah, I got a lot to unpack. Yeah, as Yeah.

Alison Cebulla  42:47

There's still I still have a lot of grief for your brother because are you kidding me? It was so hard for you to love him.

Anne Sherry  42:53

That's sane hoarder house of grief that I am like, like putting in place to open that up. So like, go slow, you know? Yeah. Cool. Okay. cried on the podcast now.

Alison Cebulla  43:10

happened. happened? Yeah. Um, so I just want to put this out into to the universe and to Kevin elder and having that you were loved.

Anne Sherry  43:21

And to John, you were laughed. At by Matt. Not me yet. I'm still working. Everybody loved you. Yeah. They said it may piss me off.

Alison Cebulla  43:39

Good kid. Where's Yeah, it's tough with a sibling though. That's

Anne Sherry  43:46

it is so tough. It is so tough when there's not enough so anyway, so but

Alison Cebulla  43:50

please enjoy this this interview that we have with Ken with cat with the other Kevin the psychiatric nurse. It's a wonderful interview and I I'm like we got to do a we're gonna do a part two. We get we didn't even touch the surface. We didn't even touch the surface

Anne Sherry  44:08

now. Fabulous. Yeah. Really fun. Okay, bye.

Alison Cebulla  44:45

All right, so we are here with Kevin. And this is the first time that we're doing an interview with an you know, a semi anonymous guest. And so Kevin works at a psychiatric hospital. and works with some sensitive patients and his name is sensitive to him and personal to him. So, um, so yeah, but we're so so, so honored to have you on today, Kevin, thank you for being here.

Kevin, psych nurse  45:17

I'm really happy to be here. It's I've been listening to your guys's work, you're doing awesome stuff. Ah, yeah, and I love the humor. That's, that's, that's within it, because what else you gonna do? You got it?

Alison Cebulla  45:32

Dude, life is so insane. Completely. That's like maybe a title for this episode, you know, as you work with, you know, people who, you know, are labeled as insane. You know, and it's, but it's like, sometimes, when you work with these types of people, you also like, see parts of the human experience or parts of yourself to where you're just like, Yeah, this is all in a movie.

Kevin, psych nurse  45:55

I know, what am I going lines with? Some of my patients isn't there. Like, I can't believe I'm here. I'm not crazy. I swear I'm a normal person. I'm like, Look, there's just a half wall of a nurse's station in between us. Very easily. We on the other side of this, like?

Alison Cebulla  46:13

You. Yeah. And so, um, I also want to add that, and I'm worked in crisis services. So I know, I'm like, I want to interview you. But yeah, what it all entails how people get into these facilities and how they don't so and can you just say, the people are

Anne Sherry  46:32

fine. The systems are a fucking wreck is is the biggest part of the problem, you know, people with all kinds of I mean, they're just like responding normally to a fucked up system and totally childhood likely and a system that is hell bent on keeping them addicted, etc, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, but the systems are. Very, you humans are wonderful. The systems are incredibly imperfect. So I worked. Yeah, I worked as an out of my graduate program. Worked in a it was a grant funded team. That was, of course, the funding was pulled because it was fucking working. But we would love better, we would go, it was four of us that would would, we're trying to mitigate hospitalization. So we were we didn't have to really do these notes to satisfy Medicaid, we were just given this pot of money to go and do anything and everything that was needed at people that were risk for hospitalization. Or just in dire, you know, some some bad outcome was going to occur. So we had two counties that we covered. So it was a two therapists qualified mental health and appear specialist which is somewhat experienced. Yeah. And for two counties, we were just we get our we, the crisis team would just tell us where to go. And we would just drive over there and say, What do you need? What's going on? Where do you need a ride, we'll get your medication. And it was really often super simple shit. Like, I got my driver's license. And then I moved into running the crisis services, which is managing like 12 clinicians to service seven hospitals. So we were on the outside in rural North Carolina, doing the evaluations to see if people needed to go into the hospital, or could we put you know, cobbled together something to keep them out of the hospital or give them what they needed? So

Alison Cebulla  48:33

this is where they would meet someone like Kevin,

Anne Sherry  48:36

then we got to bed.

Alison Cebulla  48:42

We want to ask you, we want to ask you about your your childhood and all that good stuff. But first, just tell us a little bit about your work.

Kevin, psych nurse  48:51

Yeah, so I'm a registered nurse in the state of California. I'm currently in inpatient psychiatric services. I have been doing this work. I started my training in 2005. And actually started as a licensed psychiatric technician, which is

Alison Cebulla  49:07

like last year, God bless you.

Kevin, psych nurse  49:10

Thank you. It was kind of by by chance and necessity. So I lived near a very prominent state hospital, and they were just pumping out psych texts and giving them jobs and so yeah, we got a middle class wage, you got benefits, health insurance, all the things I had just had a baby at, you know, at 20. So I was like, What am I going to do? I can't sit on the beach for the rest of my life I need to make $1 or to provide some food. And then it ended up being something that I really loved. I mean, I I love the work that I do. So I was a licensed psychiatric technician for a lot of years 10 Plus, went back to school started knocking out a course at a time all the sciences to get my registered nursing license. So amazing. Yeah, And so so now I work in an inpatient psychiatric hospital. We provide services to folks. Generally speaking, who are on LPS hold 5150. We also provide some addiction services as well because as we know, addiction and mental health or CO occurring,

Alison Cebulla  50:19

I want to ask you a lot about that. Yeah, yeah. So that's so that's what I'm doing at the moment. Okay, so now that now that our listeners know what you do, now we want to dive into the good stuff, which is tell us about how you're telling Kevin urchin,

Kevin, psych nurse  50:39

my gosh, okay. So I thought a lot about this. Okay. I am a latchkey. I'm a latchkey kiddo. My parents had God bless them. And I love them. Right. Yeah, they had they had four children by the time they were 30 have a high school diploma that not a lot of education after that. Okay. Well, they were they were hustling. You know, it was they were they were working. You know, my mom always had like three gigs. She'd be like bagging potpourri and selling it at the PTA meetings or whatever.

Alison Cebulla  51:12

Okay, okay.

Kevin, psych nurse  51:14

She had a paper route on the

Alison Cebulla  51:16

90s. late, late 80s, early 90s. Remember when there was a movement member? I can call her? Yeah, potpourri, okay. Yes.

Kevin, psych nurse  51:27

We used to bag on with her like that was part of our experience. Labor. I'm not sure it was some some crazy pyramid scheme shit. You want to know?

Anne Sherry  51:42

You look in the garage 14,000 boxes of pokery she has.

Alison Cebulla  51:49

She had to pay

Kevin, psych nurse  51:52

10 grand on the experience. And then on the way to school she had no right. And so that'd be my little brother. We'd be throwing papers out the back of the van on the way to school. She had a paper route. She cleaned houses we used to go and help her clean these mansions. You know, this is like, oh my god, I can't believe people live like this. And so we had, there's four of us. I'm number three. We range from now. 33 to 41. We've all done well. And then most of us have coped pretty well, most of the time. But, you know, my parents were gone a lot. And we relied on each other a lot. You know, it's kind of the joke that you know, my parents were like, We never did this. But they would leave us on a weekend right on a Saturday they would leave firstly in the morning. And this is before like cell phones or whatever and my dad later for work. And they would leave us this long list. Mow the lawn wash the windows. Yeah, yeah. The bathrooms. Yeah, like the house needed to keep you out of trouble. Yeah, so of course they leave in the morning and who knows what they were doing. I you know, who knows? But we would just fight viciously all day doing absolutely nothing that we're supposed to be doing. Yeah, and you know, eating whatever we could find you know, cereal cereal or on fire on top of it and then my dad would call us from a payphone we're an hour away show the

Anne Sherry  53:37

Cat in the Hat No

Kevin, psych nurse  53:44

two came out and it was like we fucking went into high gear I went out there I was mowing the lawn. You know my sister's cleaning the bathroom and we're fucking in high gear because the operating

Alison Cebulla  53:56

larious

Anne Sherry  53:57

gather we're

Kevin, psych nurse  54:00

worse my little brother didn't do shit. But yeah, you know what I mean?

Anne Sherry  54:05

Like, do cut scrub some floor action Come on, he's calm.

Kevin, psych nurse  54:11

Pull your weight or your weight or your old power that you're getting.

Alison Cebulla  54:16

You're getting

Kevin, psych nurse  54:20

so I know a lot of a lot

Anne Sherry  54:22

of potpourri was like able to mask the smell of burning food right?

Kevin, psych nurse  54:27

Exactly like we're probably yeah yeah. Did you handle potpourri?

Anne Sherry  54:49

Over will get the pope Pope or radio mom.

Kevin, psych nurse  54:52

Yeah, you might be entitled to these funds.

Alison Cebulla  54:55

You might be entitled to $10 for a million dollars

Anne Sherry  55:00

So how are they spending on those fucking ads? Right? I know.

Kevin, psych nurse  55:09

All right, you know, very classic, very classic story. My dad, my dad came from a half Irish half Mexican family. He's one of so

Alison Cebulla  55:21

what? Mexican, half Irish half Irish, half Irish, half Mexican.

Kevin, psych nurse  55:28

So my family reunions is around the bar. My man, same ring, say, same. You know, we go, you know? Yeah. So he was one of six, you know. And to give you some perspective, he his dad passed away from his third heart attack at 50. And my dad was only 20. And he only my grandfather only told my dad that he loved them twice in his life twice. He said I he said I love you. It was when he was passing away. I love you, son. And then one time when he was a kid or something, so he didn't get a lot of love from dad. Right. And, you know, there was a lot of expectations at the house, you know, similar to so to my experience, you know, you got to pull your weight, you got to do what you need to do. Yeah, my mom comes from a long line of trauma. She was physically and sexually and neglected and all of the things she had. stepfathers just did terrible things. I hate that. I hate that. Her mother, her mother was involved in a relationship at like 10. And she calls it a relationship and the way that my grandmother is

Alison Cebulla  56:44

taught grandma,

Kevin, psych nurse  56:46

like her first relationship, and it's like, no. That's not a relationship. Right? So it's fine, long line. So my mom made an active choice to kind of break that for us.

Alison Cebulla  57:01

Good go Mom. Yeah, right.

Kevin, psych nurse  57:03

No, she kicked us over Bree. And she loved us all the fucking time to to a false super hypersensitive, dark experience and feelings. Right. And she still is. She's still with us. And I love him. He's great. You know, so before I was talking to you, Allie about the conversation I had with my mom last week, because I told her I was like, Look, I'm going to be on this podcast. And I've been talking about your guys's podcast. I love this story. Yeah. And I was like, Mom, you have to listen to this shit. Like, it's good. It's funny. Like, I think you can get a lot from it. You know, it's like, and they've asked me to interview. I was like, but part of the process is you talk about your own personal experience, right? And I was like, are you okay with me talking about kind of where you came from? And you know, kind of nonspecifically some of the trauma that you've faced? And she was like, oh, yeah, absolutely. And I was like, and I'm going to talk about my childhood a little bit. You know, we what she sees it a little bit differently than I do. My mom's and she was like, Yeah, Kevin, of course, you talk about what you want, as long as something doesn't come up on the podcast that I don't know about. I was like, Alright, fair. She was like, so let me tell you a story. I am 36 years old. I have two kiddos. You know, I've known my mom for a long time. Right? So why is the story coming up now that I'm going

Alison Cebulla  58:45

to tell him anything? I don't know. But by the way, by the

Kevin, psych nurse  58:49

way, just in case

Alison Cebulla  58:55

people don't know about

Kevin, psych nurse  59:00

just like Son, do you remember that preschool you went to called the yellow brick road?

Alison Cebulla  59:06

Like I already like,

Kevin, psych nurse  59:09

yeah, yellow brick path to this big Victorian house. It was in the Bay Area. And I was like, Yeah, I fucking hated that place. Like I remember going there and standing at the window and fucking crying my eyes out, like, three or four or whatever. And there was really no need for me to be in school at that time. When I think about it. Like she had a baby at home. She was home like, why are you sending me to the yellow brick road? And so she's like, well, one day you came home from the preschool and you asked me, Mom, is it okay for anyone to kiss my peepee

Anne Sherry  59:46

Oh,

Kevin, psych nurse  59:49

yes. Okay, so, okay, so can we know bass levels? She has never told me this before. And I have memories of asking my mother is it okay? If anyone kisses my peepee? You know? And so she tells me, no, it's not okay for people to kiss your peepee I don't like, Okay. And then what does she do? She says, you back the next fucking yellow brick road the next day. I don't know how long it was at the yellow brick road. But all I remember from it is like how terrible it was. And I'm like, Mom, Mom, why did you bring me back? She was talk to the teacher. And I was like, the one that was kissing my you know, so I don't identify. I identify myself as having trauma. You know, like, emotional neglect. Maybe a little bit too much emotion.

Alison Cebulla  1:00:51

For sure. Yeah, sure, for sure. But I don't

Kevin, psych nurse  1:00:54

have any memories of being sexually abused. I don't have any, you know, I don't have any identifiable thing. Right. Yeah. Right. Which makes it hard to talk about this shit. Because it's literally like, right, nobody, you know, but maybe somebody gets my peepee remember,

Alison Cebulla  1:01:11

you and I were talking about that, Kevin because, um, my I was also, or we don't know if anyone gets your PPE or not. But I was molested when I was three. And the reason I know about it is because I told my mom about it. And she told me later when I was an adult. So it's really weird. Because when I go in and try and like, heal, or whatever, you know, do the work. I'm like, I don't I, it's so vague. And, and stuff that happens from zero to three is like, your brain doesn't form those memories in a way that you can carry them on into the rest of your life. Like you can once you're four and older. So, you know, like, I remember going to a, like a somatic therapist to try and like tap into like the early stuff. You know, she kind of took one look at my like kind of hunched over. She was like you you have some early. We're gonna work on

Anne Sherry  1:02:02

to you're kind of like trying to curl up and go back into the you know, like this. This. This isn't good. Or bad.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:02:10

Yeah, therapist could look at you. Yes, I can. 10 minutes. Okay. Ah, all right. Did you go to the yellow bricks

Anne Sherry  1:02:25

just follow the yellow brick. Yellow Brick Wall. Yeah. put you to sleep at a fucking poppy field. But, but so Kevin. That movie about sexual? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla  1:02:41

I don't know. Oh, no. Okay. Yeah. But you, Kevin, you. I mean, you when we were talking earlier to kind of prep for this. We were kind of sharing like how for both of us. It's a little, it's just a little hard to accept. Like, you you kind of share it. Hopefully this is okay. Like, you do feel that there's something there. There's a little bit of there's this little little something of trauma that you don't have a memory for that feels tough.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:03:07

Yes, yes. Yeah. And I think it directly relates to what I do as well, which we can talk about as

Alison Cebulla  1:03:13

Yeah, tell us Yeah,

Kevin, psych nurse  1:03:14

it's it's, it's I feel like I'm an impasse. Mm hmm. For sure. But I've always like there's there's something there's just something I feel like that I can't quite put my finger on Yes. And and I don't I don't know why or what and I you know, it's hard to you got

Alison Cebulla  1:03:33

to read running on empty, right and running on empty. It will illuminate that weird everybody read it? Yeah, every Okay. Wait, this is a great I want to just say because someone that we don't know, not like not not personally attached to us to and I messaged us on Instagram and said, Hey, I've only seen your podcast, I picked up a couple books you guys recommended and showed me the screenshots on Instagram. And so if you hear that we've recommended something and you end up listening to it and it helps let us know. Yeah, please we want to hear about it. So and then also please stop stop everything and and listen to the audio book or read the physical book of running on empty by Denise Webb. It is the best Yes,

Kevin, psych nurse  1:04:20

yes. Ben Ali. What if I don't want to open this up? I fucking suck. You know, like, like, no we're just keeping that in my mind.

Anne Sherry  1:04:36

Yeah, do not let go of your ability to hate your feelings and know they're gross and compartmentalize Don't. Don't just don't just pack that away. Like keep that as you bring on. I see a tiny bit of curiosity. tiny bits Yeah. Do not smell the whole bowl, like little spray spray Under the nozzle, you know, just

Kevin, psych nurse  1:05:02

how it relates to work that I do now. So it's working in psychiatry, and I've done a lot and as well, it's with crisis work. So I've worked in emergency rooms doing crisis intervention, I've done crisis work with children and adolescents, mitigating hospitalization, then some outreach stuff going out in community and it's, it's fucking hard shit. And you see, ask them some really dire situations. Yeah. And I can tuck that away. Like, I'm good at it. It's like I can I can see it, and then deal and then just compartmentalize the shit out of it. Oh, yeah. That's my kids, you know, and

Anne Sherry  1:05:41

it's what kept me in crisis work for seven years. I would I would hire people or people would come on that just took just lived it. I was like, Zillow, that shit up, like, just put it like, zip it up. Go in there. You got this, you know, and yeah, but when I drive out to western North Carolina, I am, which is the territory we covered. I cannot take off this kind of like, suit of, I think stored traumas of the people, you know, because it's hard for me to even drive in that area. Because like, five, six years of working in trauma, I didn't know anybody was didn't have an opiate addiction in Waynesville, I like meet, quote, unquote, you know, members of the community that come from I'm like, so what's your story, you know, and they're like, Oh, I just, you know, have a good family. And we just go to this, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Tell me what's going on? Like, I don't believe it. I don't believe anybody isn't. So it's all you see, too, you know, so I don't, I don't know. Either way that I could have processed all

Kevin, psych nurse  1:06:45

that. Then these and these, and the people that you work with to take it home, and they live it and it's the fucking people. That is like, that is what like,

Anne Sherry  1:06:53

I think about that sometimes.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:06:55

You know, like, as somebody who's, like, let's say, You know what, like me? Yes, that's, that's what we do. Yes. And so I think that's what led me to the work and why I'm pretty fucking good at it, you know, I'm able to do it, and then tuck it away. And also just with the level of personal guard to write like, we do, like, my last name is not on my batch, you know, just just for privacy stuff. And, you know, the majority of my patients are very, very, very lovely. All of my patients are lovely. But but some might, you know, want to look me up and have a conversation that I don't want to

Anne Sherry  1:07:38

I would do if I was part of the team that would go in, at least in North Carolina, you you go and file the commitment. You know, your name is on the paperwork. Yes, yes. So and last name,

Kevin, psych nurse  1:07:51

Carolina's so I am I'm certified to an LPS to do so I can be hospitalized you. And that comes with a lot of that tell us more our app. And you know, my backgrounds. Makes me good at it. But police officers can write these holds emergency room doctors, folks that maybe don't have the mental health background to really do a thorough assessment. And really consider whether this is what this person needs like. You are involuntarily detaining someone who has not committed a crime. That is huge. That is huge. You're locking somebody up? Who hasn't done anything?

Alison Cebulla  1:08:43

Well, let me let me Okay, so I just I just want to ask both of you, since you both have worked in this field. Like, what's the dream? What's the dream scenario, because I just want to share that in my personal life. This week, an ex boyfriend of mine passed away from a drug overdose. And it's been a really tough week. It's interesting, my grief is complex, because I feel that I already did a lot of grieving because it was very clear that he wasn't going to get the help that he needed. He was suffering from psychosis, schizophrenia, and that just wasn't getting treated. And part of schizophrenia is that he doesn't see that he has it. It feels like real life to him. He doesn't he's not able to actually get the treatment that he needs. This that's hard for people to understand. And there was this conversation that I had with a police officer at one time what happened was that he was wandering around, he was high on methamphetamines. He was, you know, totally delusional. He was wandering around a Home Depot, and I get a phone call to my cell phone. And someone said, I'm a social worker. I'm not on the clock, but I was in Home Depot and I found your friend. I'm also also a Kevin Um, and I just he said to call you, and I said, Okay, well, did you call the police? Right? Cuz I'm like, I can't like, I can't deal with. Yeah, yeah. And, um, and so a police officer arrived, and I got on the phone with a police officer and I said, this person has schizophrenia, it's been impossible for me to get him the treatment that he needs. I understand that he's high on drugs. I understand that he probably his intent was to shoplift because he's homeless, you know what I mean? He needs to eat or whatever, um, and buy more drugs? And, um, but like, can you take them in for the love of fucking Christ, take this man in and get him the help and hold them down and stick them with that Abilify and get the voices to stop. And, and the police officer, actually, I feel had this was here in San Luis Obispo, California, I feel had gotten a trauma informed training of some kind. He was actually great. He was like, I hear you. I know, I understand. I what he's like, I would say that, like 90% of our homeless population is suffering from schizophrenia, or something like it. And it is the reason that this is happening, you know, and I am so so sorry. But there is literally not one thing I can do for this person. There's nowhere I can't involuntarily hold them. The law says I can't. And even if I did, he still wouldn't get the treatment that he needs. That's right. What the fuck?

Kevin, psych nurse  1:11:26

So Ronald Reagan described it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's so so Reagan in 1967. Right? Yes. Yes. institutionalization hospital. Yes. And the LPS Act, the Lanterman Petrus short, and it made it really very specific criteria to involuntarily detained somebody to hospitalized somebody. And that's because you could take your wife and drop her off at the state hospital and be like, She's crazy.

Alison Cebulla  1:12:03

For women, it's happened to someone in my family. Yeah,

Kevin, psych nurse  1:12:05

yeah. And so so this law was was enacted so so that that couldn't happen. But what totally made it so is that folks who need treatment have to meet very specific, you're either a danger to yourself an imminent threat, danger to yourself, or an imminent threat to somebody else, or you're gravely disabled. And that's where we have a little bit of wiggle room. Okay, I feel in the law, so that police officer could have been, you know, his psychiatric symptoms, or keeping him from accessing care that he could benefit from. So now we're gonna we're gonna say that he's gravely disabled, but it has to be related to an access one mental health diagnosis. It can't be because you're high on methamphetamines. It can't be because you're homeless

Anne Sherry  1:12:56

or homeless. And access one we have those.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:12:59

So there's a there's an access. It's we use it in the medical field, to categorize diagnoses. So in access one diagnoses is any sort of like thought, mood disorders, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, an axis there's five access policies or what however you want to say that yeah, access to?

Anne Sherry  1:13:23

You're getting a course in DSM everyone, right? Yes.

Alison Cebulla  1:13:26

Yeah.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:13:29

You guys have a whole whole episode on the DSM? Yes. There's a lot of money involved in getting totally, it's kind of a shame. So an access Why is a thought disorder a mood disorder, an access to holds diagnoses of personality disorders? Borderline Personality, histrionic an axis three is medical diagnoses hypertension. Got it? Got it. Got it? 80s. Yeah. And access for is what they call a functioning score. So it's a score of an end. If I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but it's a score. It's a It's called A gaf score.

Anne Sherry  1:14:09

That's five four has all the socio economic debt, those kinds of homelessness. Just gotta gotta

Kevin, psych nurse  1:14:16

gotta Got it. Thank you. Yeah. And you sort of have yet

Anne Sherry  1:14:19

to come up with some number that corresponds to and it's just a shot in the dark. Really? Yeah. And it's really not

Kevin, psych nurse  1:14:27

billing, you know, and, you know, going back and what you charge for

Alison Cebulla  1:14:34

sounds like a nightmare.

Anne Sherry  1:14:36

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay,

Alison Cebulla  1:14:39

so you were explaining that.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:14:42

So so in this so so with with Kevin in this bow? Yes. At first glance, you know, this officer is like, Okay, well, he's homeless. He's clearly high on methamphetamine. I can't put him on on a on a mental health hold without a clear under Standing of what his history is because you have to correlate the whole to mental health issues. So you can't just like put all the homeless people on 5150s Or you know, a friend that is clearly psychotic secondary to methamphetamine use. You can't it's so hard to get them into an involuntary treatment. And they might not meet the criteria, they're going to be discharged. You know,

Alison Cebulla  1:15:25

Kevin, you and I have joked before nothing on earth would sober him up, like talking to a police officer. Adrenaline I was like, bottled injected with that, yes, I swear to God, you've never met a saner or more sober man in your life in life.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:15:47

All of a sudden, into on the steering wheel. Can I help you sir? I'm going to my grandmother's house.

Anne Sherry  1:16:01

Over the hill and far away.

Alison Cebulla  1:16:07

Yeah. And so I got you know, I was on the phone with this police officer. And he's like, Well, you know, I believe you, but he seems fine. I was like, I am sure he fucking does. But he is the farthest thing from fine. And you should talk to him at like 9pm on a Friday when he you know, is running about data. Sam is coming back to conquer the Earth and he's gonna ride on a chariot and save the world. I mean, I, at one point, I I recorded one of his his delusional monologues that he and he wasn't on drugs. He just started going off about how he was sent to earth just to save and he was a special being. And a lot of schizophrenics stuff is like this. And I just secretly recorded it. I never did anything with it. And I kind of hate that I did it. But I was like, no one believed like

Kevin, psych nurse  1:17:00

that you can be

Anne Sherry  1:17:02

like you are you are allowed to live in.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:17:07

Me, I'm good. Yeah. So until locked care. It's gonna have to be it has to be the symptomology has to be making it you dangerous to yourself. Right? Yes. So the voices are telling you to kill yourself very specifically on how you're going to do it. Yes. Yeah. Are you assault? Some random person on the street? Because right? They killed your mother. Right? Because you have schizophrenia. So

Alison Cebulla  1:17:28

this just is so fucked. Like, it's just I don't know what the solution is. Because I do get it that like people deserve to have autonomy over their lives and whatever. And you can't just throw people in a psychiatric hospital. But yes, for example, with the case of Kevin, he's now dead. At 33 years old. He's dead at 33 years old, is that the kind of society that we want. And then I have another example, which is that there was this happened a few months ago, here in San Luis Obispo, where there was a man who sounds so similar to the Kevin I just lost, who was a young man, he was sounds like he was self medicating with methamphetamine, his family members tried to get him help. So many times, there's records of them calling and being like, please. And eventually he broke into a climbing gym and stole some laptops. And when the police went to his house, he shot them boats and one of them died. And I'm just like, come on, the family knew and and I never related to them so much, because I know exactly what they went through. But it's like, there's literally nothing that can be done. Yeah.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:18:33

And that's such a common that's such a common experience, you know, with with families not being able to get their folks the care that they need. Because it's so specific. And you're really left

Anne Sherry  1:18:43

alone with it. Family members are tired, they're overwhelmed. They're there. Yes. You know, and then no one has listened. And they're sort of stigmatized as well, you must have been, you must have done something terrible to this for you know, it's really your problem. I mean, do we have enough time to?

Kevin, psych nurse  1:19:04

I know it's a family. It's a family disease? Yeah. Yeah, I'm really like, if there's still family around, yeah. In my practice and my care in the hospital, I try to incorporate them as much as possible and empower them and educate and listen, because I want them to be around for this person because you get burned out and most of them yes, the left right, yeah. I'm done.

Anne Sherry  1:19:34

Well, and oh my god, like you need insurance to help pay for the treatment they need. I mean, we could we could line up treatment all fucking day, but people didn't have insurance or the co pays are too hard. Hi. That where are they going to live when they come out? I mean, I did substance abuse. Right, right. Yeah. And the jail for for men for Haywood County. For a little while. The most delightful humans on the planet, like they're clean, meaning well showered. Sure, but they're using. Yeah. They're funny. They have all their needs met, they have a structure. Do you know so they go and they want it. They weren't you know, I would go weekly and then I don't know they'll be there for a while and then I've got it. I'm gonna go back to school. I'm gonna, I'm gonna blah blah, blah. And they're fucking buddy is waiting for them with a hit. Right when they get and it's over. You know? Yeah. So it's so sad because you actually get to see the human being that they are outside of the substance. Yeah, and I think people just who don't work in these environments and don't have proximity to these humans are like, fucking throw him away. Put him in. You know, he stole something he did this. My backyard. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we don't do any proximity. So we just project all this hate onto them. Right? Because we don't know how to care.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:21:04

Yeah, yeah. monetize the illness and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah. Just just get better. Just get better. We need not

Anne Sherry  1:21:14

even Yeah, just quit. Just quit using Yeah.

Alison Cebulla  1:21:17

Oh, they just quit using thing I really now punch people in the face. I know. We want to punch people in the face. Yeah, I understand how this fucking works. You fucking cunt.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:21:28

Straight up. So let's talk about this controlled setting that is jail. Yeah. Hospitals. Yeah. So so it's like, the average length of stay in an inpatient psychiatric setting here in the state of California is probably about three to five days, generally speaking. And it's an Our goal is his safety. And, and that's right,

Anne Sherry  1:21:51

same here.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:21:52

And a lot, a lot of all the other really good stuff that we want to do is not possible to do in such a short amount of time. So you know, talking about trauma and trauma informed care. In a hospital where somebody is there involuntarily. We forget about it. That's traumatizing in and of itself, ever. You want 50? Yeah, they were taken to the emergency room, they were stripped of their clothes, they were put in this gown. They're sitting on a gurney for 20 hours cold

Anne Sherry  1:22:21

mat by a lot of well, you know, overworked hospital personnel that will really doesn't have enough room for them. We don't give a fuck. So, so fast.

Alison Cebulla  1:22:31

So, so fast to not detract from what you're saying. But I just want to share a summary of what happened to me when I stayed one night vault voluntary voluntarily, I, um, I started to have a panic attack, I was living in Austin, I called a therapist that I'd seen one time, so she really didn't know me, but she was worried that I was going to do something and my cousin had just taken his own life. So I knew that when you have an example, in your mind, you're at a greater risk. So I thought, You know what I need to I need to actually do something about this. So I checked myself into a hospital. And, um, right away, everything was wrong. It was a private hospital, Austin, and the person checking me in started flirting with me. Okay, it was absolutely horrifying. I'm having I'm sobbing, I'm having a mental breakdown. I don't think I can go on living. I don't think I can survive in the world. And he's telling me oh, I wish, God I wish we could be friends if you weren't here under these circumstances. And Oh, you're so cool. And data, it was. And then I get checked in. And they take my stuff, and they put it out on this table in which all the patients have access to all my things. I'm not, I'm not kidding. Then they take me into a room and they want me to take off all my clothes. And there's an open window into the lobby with people in it. Right. And I'm having a meltdown. And I'm like, Are you really gonna make me take off all my clothes in front of everybody in the lobby?

Kevin, psych nurse  1:23:54

Yeah, that's, that's, that's terrible. That's,

Alison Cebulla  1:23:58

yeah, okay. Then. Um, my, the reason I had had such a huge meltdown is because I had been sexually assaulted a few weeks earlier while traveling. And immediately, of course, this really creepy guy about the same age as my assailant starts coming at me and needing me to feed him energy. And so I'm freaking out. And as I'm freaking out, they're like, You better cool it. They're like telling me that there's so I need to cool it. Right? But you know, and then know the fight. So finally, I'm like, I'm not supposed to be here and someone, someone helps me like one of the therapists like, really, he's like, Okay, here's how you got to play the system. He's like, You need to be the safest you've ever been in your whole life right now. When you talk to your psychiatrist, and you can get out. You

Anne Sherry  1:24:42

need to go Kevin with a police officer. Oh,

Alison Cebulla  1:24:46

yeah. Yeah, so I, um, I go to checkout the next day. And my wallet is not with my things. And they were supposed to lock it up in the safe area and they didn't. And so someone has One of the staff members had stolen money out of my wallet. And I, as I later find out, and I have to clean up the wreckage, they stole my identity, and I had to cancel. They stole my identity, one of the staff members, and I had to cancel all my credit cards. As I'm dealing with the biggest mental health break of my life. I had to cancel my credit cards, I had to report all this stuff to whatever. Yeah.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:25:23

And that's so frustrating. That's because as much as this work is stigmatized, and not understood, then you have an experience like that. That's terrible. Because Are you gonna go back to access care again, come back. What did they do for you, they read the price you write, they re traumatize you, and they standardize the process to where you're not going to access care anymore. Right. Fortunately, I've worked in a lot of different hospitals and settings. I worked in a major state hospital for a lot of years. And it tends to bring folks like myself, who want to fix things, yes, for myself, you know. But it also can bring some people that are just kind of like power hungry. And the effects you know, it was just that the Stanford Prison. Whatever. It's real, you give somebody a key and yes, or Yes, really trippy. Yeah. It's unfortunate. And I've seen it a lot, not so much anymore. As I've kind of progressed in my career, the places I worked at nicer and have more resources and whatever, right? I've worked in some pretty rough spots where as I'm an advocate all the time, like I means where I'm just like, that is okay. Yeah, and we're gonna do it like this. Yeah. You know, and sometimes people get so caught up in their own personal crisis. I mean, how are they going to help you manage your

Alison Cebulla  1:26:55

they're not paying? I mean, the problem was, I know for a fact, because they were like, I contacted a lawyer, and the lawyer was like, okay, like, due to like, the ways the laws are set up, like, we really can't like sue the hospital, because like, it's just like, you just can't. And he's like, but you can report the nurses to the nursing board. And I'm like, You really want me to report this? coroner's? He's probably making $12 Because this is Texas. This is a California $12 an hour. You don't I mean, this poor woman. And she was obviously an immigrant from the Caribbean. So like, here, you know, she's already got like, trauma of being an immigrant to the United States and barely, right, you know, and the jail isn't Yeah, like woman. So

Anne Sherry  1:27:35

this is, this is not a flaw. This is a feature of this fucking system. keeps you focused on the untrained, underpaid, traumatized person that's caring for traumatized people, rather than the system that actually is responsible. But oh, no, we couldn't sue the hospital or we couldn't have any impact on the hospital doing a better job. Right? Yeah. So it's a feature. Yeah. And

Kevin, psych nurse  1:27:59

they're making and they're making money. So

Anne Sherry  1:28:00

they're making a lot of money.

Alison Cebulla  1:28:03

Insurance. With insurance. It was $700 out of my pocket to stay there one night and get I pay I literally

Anne Sherry  1:28:10

use it. King Ritz Carlton, yeah. Better, better. A better day at the rich. Yeah, it would have been better. Yes, yeah.

Alison Cebulla  1:28:19

No, thank you for saying that.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:28:21

But the thing is, so to that nurse. You You are we are advocates for our people. I'm sorry. Like I have worked in some pretty rough places. And, and I will rub people the wrong way. I'll come in to this established culture that a hospital will have. And I'm like, no, no, I am not going to conform to this and it. But not everyone is like that, right? Like, she probably came in to an established situation. Yes, traveler nurse. So she was only there for six weeks or something. And the staff has been there forever. And this is the way we do things like no, actually every single person has to take their clothes off. And this is the place where they do it so that we can know. Every single person does not have to take their clothes off like that. Yes. Use your assessment skills.

Alison Cebulla  1:29:11

Oh, yeah, it was the thing where all the the executives because I did meet like this, the director came in because I was having a fucking meltdown. Once Once I realized someone stole money out of my wallet. I started screaming at everyone and the therapist was like, okay, but okay, like, you know what, like, you're like, okay, but go quiet. Yeah. You know, like the director and the psychiatrist and the therapists white adapted. Yeah, I know. We're white men. And my nurse was a black woman. Do you don't mean just look at the power dynamic there. She didn't have any authority to question anyway, because of all the racism and the way that everything's set up. Yeah. Oh,

Kevin, psych nurse  1:29:50

yes. Yeah, I mean, and that's and they're, they they sign their paychecks. You know,

Alison Cebulla  1:29:55

like very meager, very, very meager paychecks.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:29:58

So I am sorry that you had that experience. And it

Anne Sherry  1:30:03

was so intense that is not reflective

Kevin, psych nurse  1:30:05

of every every hold, I hold in my, in my own personal practice, I hold a lot of responsibility in each person that comes through. And I want to individualize everything for that person. Like, I'm not going to make a strip in a gown if I don't think you need to strip it again. Thank

Alison Cebulla  1:30:27

you. Thank you so much, Kevin.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:30:30

And I'm gonna take your pockets, and I'm going to do what I need to do to maintain safety. But I'm not going to make you get naked in front of a window, because that's what we have to do

Alison Cebulla  1:30:36

God fucking bless you. Yeah. Because I are doing God's work brain

Kevin, psych nurse  1:30:40

and a sound. Right? Yeah, yes. And so. And that's the thing about the settings is that, you know, you have to keep people safe. Yeah. But you also have to individualize your interventions to that person and consider trauma and concern, why they're there. So when I admit it, I very briefly will touch on, is there any trauma you want to tell me about? Often, you know, it's like, so you can tell me or you could not and and if it's specific to your presentation here, and you want to talk to me about it? I'm, I'm here to listen. Right. But if you don't want to tell me, then don't Don't tell me. You know, and that's fine. We also, you know, we use restraint and seclusion in hospitals to maintain safety. Right. And it's very specific to imminent dangerousness Yeah, and there's a very, there's a set of laws, and it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, last resort kind of thing, safety stuff. So I'll also ask, like, hey, like we are, we say, We're hands on facility, you know, like, if, if need be, if the criteria is met, if there's a safety concern, we might be touching your body, right? Is there any trauma that you want, that's going to affect that, so that and this

Alison Cebulla  1:31:57

makes me so happy to know that this exists is this and

Anne Sherry  1:32:02

probably a lot of that exists? I know, we get down on stuff, but I bet you, there's a great deal, I

Alison Cebulla  1:32:10

can't talk itself, the whole state, just fuck itself.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:32:15

So with my work with children and adolescents, I was at a crisis center, and these kids would come on 5150 holds either by police, or they would come in with their parents, and we do an assessment and initiate the hold. And we had 24 hours to do an assessment. And our goal is to keep them out of the hospital, because nobody wants to be in the hospital. And a lot of people actually don't need to be in the hospital especially. Right. Yeah, no, yeah. Away from their parents. Right. But you know, it's they're going to, there's going to be trauma. Yeah, right. For sure. So we tried to mitigate hospitalization, right, connect them with some services, whatever we need to do. But part of their process, and I didn't write this, but part of their process was, we had a series of approved physical hopes that we can do if we need to maintain safety. And we would, we would describe them to the kiddos and be like, which one would you prefer? I love that one, right. And then again, this power of like, well, if I'm cutting on myself, or if I start banging my head, because we see a lot of these things, right. And we Right, right, right, right. Stop that. Right. And several, there's these approved, you know, maneuvers that we can do that are physically safe, and all the things but then it allows them to know what's what's coming. Right and know what's gonna know, and especially when you have a bunch of adults,

Alison Cebulla  1:33:36

I don't see that too, though, not just kids. Yeah,

Kevin, psych nurse  1:33:45

no, there's there's a lot of good work going on out there. And there is a lot of not great work. Right?

Alison Cebulla  1:33:51

I want to ask a couple things. One is like, is this a is this a trauma informed training that you are getting? Is this something that you have advocated for? And then I want to ask you a couple questions about your own, like your own health and well being and maybe some secondary trauma. So but it's so the trauma informed care, is it whatever is are you guys receiving that? Are you getting trained in that or what's going oh, yes, it's

Anne Sherry  1:34:18

the state of California. Widespread?

Kevin, psych nurse  1:34:20

Yeah. So the state of California, you get a specific training to be designated to right to be able to hold somebody. It's a very brief training. It's the nuts and bolts, it's has nothing to do with trauma. It's very specific to the this is the the law, and where you can write a 5150 Okay, now for each institution, depending on the caliber of the institution, they have their own specific programs. And they're all pretty similar. You know, crisis prevention, intervention, nonviolent crisis intervention, it's all it's all specific to the institution and it's an annual training motivational interviewing there's there's little specific things, but it's not enough. It's definitely not enough. And so a lot of what I bring is just my own personal experiences and, you know, skills that I've learned over the years of what works, what, what doesn't work, what I've seen happen that I don't want to do it and it can be it's a really tough place to to work. I mean, you see people, I mean, you're just describing your friend Kevin. Yeah, in the hospital, right, who's experiencing significant symptoms? So the folks that are in the hospital are really sick. Yes. Most of the time, you know, there's some folks that I'll admit and I'm like, Yeah, I'm getting the doctors coming in like you don't. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla  1:35:49

Could you tell us about some of the some of the cases that have affected you the most? Like, what if What have you seen that's hard?

Kevin, psych nurse  1:35:59

Young Young first breaks young first psychotic breaks, okay. Enroll. Yeah, yeah. high functioning. Students who crack that book really hard. And they have their first experience away from home and they've got stressors, and then boom, right? That's that was putting, you know, because generally speaking, right, these access one disorders, these thought process disorders, they happen right? In these times, right, like, yeah, yeah, or whatever. Yeah. And that breaks my heart, because you have parents coming in and they're seeing their child responding to internal stimuli. They're psychotic, paranoid, they're like, these are my parents, whatever, the presentation. Yeah, it really breaks my heart because they have a lifetime. Illness. And there's no right. There's no cure. Right. We have tools. We have medicines. Yeah. But a lot of our medicines sock tenders? No, like, there's no money in mental health. So

Anne Sherry  1:37:08

there's no right or accepting it. I mean, they do they do show if the family rallies and set and doesn't try to manage it or No, are if they can't get over the fact that their kid may not be on the trajectory or greed, right. This is what we have now. Yeah, there's plenty of ability, you know, like, it's the family involvement. It's the taking it seriously, it's the social, like, using medicine, using regulation, you know, emotional regulation, early access to crisis services are I mean, you can have a pretty decent life, even with a major mental, you know, before the shift starts getting managed with substances, you know, and, and you have the last stuff coming in, but when there's that, but when it's like poverty and trauma, and it's like, it just starts spiral, you know, and then we're just like us too messy, we can't deal with it. But that is really when we need the government, you know, dollars to come in and say, man, we got to there is a way to make and if you just want to look at it from a financial perspective, throw a shit ton of money early. It's gonna make a

Alison Cebulla  1:38:22

huge don't even get me started. Don't even get me started. I

Anne Sherry  1:38:26

know. I'm on tight rope right now. I'm on that book. God. Oh, yeah, buddy. Listen, to tightrope.

Alison Cebulla  1:38:31

Listen to it. Nicholas Kristof. He's running for governor of Oregon, which is where my out

Anne Sherry  1:38:36

for residency thing or did he come back?

Alison Cebulla  1:38:39

I just looked him up.

Anne Sherry  1:38:40

Really? Sounds like he grew up there. Yeah. Anyway, but if you? Uh, yes. And have you written book. It's an it is time wrote by

Alison Cebulla  1:38:49

Nicholas Kristof and Sheryl woo done. And he's, he's looking at how in his hometown of Yamhill, Oregon, which is not far from where my friend Kevin the one who just passed away where he's from, and in Oregon, and there's some really sad kind of depressed areas, you know, of Oregon, where, you know, Nicholas Kristof talks about like, half the kids that he rode the bus with are no longer with us. And it's because of substance misuse. or diabetes.

Anne Sherry  1:39:20

Yes, throw people away. We just throw people away. It's no fun for them. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they Yeah, insurance companies. They are I remember being that assessment because we're like, No, this person we know this person historically in the community. And they're like, they don't meet criteria today. They don't meet criteria, get the fuck out of there. Right. So right thing and you guys have to visit.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:39:48

So now all the sudden, patient stable, you know, and it's I worked in a lot of different government things where it's like work for the state. So there was no Really any consideration to insurance? So people, you know, but you have to be really sick to access, you know, state hospital care, right then with with, you know, Medicare or Medicaid. You know, you're trying to get people services and you can't but there's but there's not like a personal financial gain but working in a private hospital. And depending on the insurance that the pay rise, you get different rates of payment. Yeah. And sometimes you see some trends in care provided is based on reimbursement. And as somebody who gets paid by the hour by the hospital, who doesn't give a shit about what kind of insurance you have, I'm looking at you as a person. It's so frustrating to have your care dictated by this. Yeah, money's. Yep. And you see things that you would rather not see. Yeah, I can't get things that you know, that they need. Because they don't have any money.

Anne Sherry  1:41:06

Yeah. Yeah. And

Alison Cebulla  1:41:09

it's Yeah, I was at

Anne Sherry  1:41:11

when did Obamacare come or

Alison Cebulla  1:41:13

2011

Anne Sherry  1:41:16

saying crisis services from 2007 to 2013. So we had a ton of people that we called state funded or whatever. I mean, I had this kid, he had a broken arm, you know, and it was like, too bad. Fuck yeah. No, no, no, no. He's like, they weren't they weren't getting treatment. Yeah, completely come.

Alison Cebulla  1:41:42

No, no. No. Oh, this kid's gonna seek

Anne Sherry  1:41:51

out heroin or some sort of painkiller or whatever. And they were like,

Alison Cebulla  1:41:58

down.

Anne Sherry  1:42:00

That's what I said to Tyler's interview, right. Burn it all down. Back up, we got to work within this.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:42:08

We have, like, implementation of the Affordable Care Act. Yeah, I saw significantly more care. Yeah, people coming in that hadn't had access to anything. And like the California exchange, like we were treating sicker, PETA that was again, we've been awesome. Awesome. Like it and, and the fact that kids can stay on their insurance until they're 26 under their parents and like, all these

Alison Cebulla  1:42:34

literally went into effect, right as I turned 27 I was like,

Anne Sherry  1:42:38

you, you were at the absolute worst. No.

Alison Cebulla  1:42:46

85 Don't be worse

Kevin, psych nurse  1:42:51

than you.

Anne Sherry  1:42:52

Yeah. latchkey 1968 was like, we just made it to the next thing. And then the next. Even we even hit the pandemic at the right time. We're like, that's cool. We don't need anything anyways. You know, like, whatever. That's fine.

Alison Cebulla  1:43:05

I was born in the mid fucky, 80s. And we had to do that recession, right? Graduating from college, and then the fucking pandemic. We were supposed to be like, building families and building Well, I am. I just could not be angry or

Anne Sherry  1:43:21

angry episode. But for all the trauma that you've

Kevin, psych nurse  1:43:27

benefited from the economic downturn, it allowed me to get into housing when you know, and things like that.

Alison Cebulla  1:43:34

Okay. So you bought a house at that time? Right. Right. Right.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:43:37

And so it's like, and I had just got, like, I felt like I was I was writing things out pretty good. Pretty good for you, but then put in this new freakin virus, man. So think about how hard this work is. Yeah. Hospital.

Anne Sherry  1:43:53

Oh, my God. And then

Kevin, psych nurse  1:43:54

you've got COVID. Right. And so how are you? So in an inpatient psychiatric setting, right, so much of it is is like mill you like, like community, you know, community groups and peer to peer stuff, like so much of the treatment is which affects your neurotransmitters as well as medicines to do but like, you know, group therapy and listening to each other and thinking about Yes, yeah. In medicines. That's, that's what gets you better, right? That's right. So it's like, okay, well, you happen to get hospitalized in the middle of a pandemic, and there's, you know, to stay in your room is COVID Positive. So everyone's eating in their rooms. I was wondering, I know. And it's been, it's terrible, and everyone is freaked out. And you know, it's been a long two years. Yeah. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla  1:44:48

Right. Yeah. Gosh, this has been rough. So yeah.

Anne Sherry  1:44:53

Well, I just I keep thinking the, for me, the subtitle of this podcast is like, why Can't we care? You know, like, I do think this compartmentalization that we were talking about. I keep wondering, and the more that I'm in it, and Allison has me read this awful book and this awful state of Thank you. You're an awful book queen. Yes, yes. Yes. I love your ability to just swim in that sewage of trauma, like American trauma. Because if you do and you gotta go slow ish, but I guess I would want to say to people, maybe always ask like, Kevin, what what do you want to say to, to the people out there of how to how to conceptualize even mental illness? And I mean, just get informed. Why I mean, if we were always like, yelling at legislators and whatever, you know, if you ever had time to stop and write a fucking letter to somebody, but these are these are your community members. These are your brothers and sisters. Like my brother is dead because of this. Like he couldn't he couldn't I hated him his whole life because if he

Alison Cebulla  1:46:01

has schizophrenia,

Anne Sherry  1:46:02

he had effective he gets effective. Okay. He which is basically psychosis with borderline personality disorder.

Alison Cebulla  1:46:10

Oh, wait, this is what? My cover? Yeah. Okay, severe substance

Anne Sherry  1:46:15

abuse. I don't know what his trauma was. My parents were overwhelmed. They could never get any help. You know, that like, yeah, he would he would also do the police thing, but just being like that, as soon as a cop showed up. Yeah, I don't know. It's amazing just put it in a bag people gotta care, y'all. I mean, we can't be so overwhelmed. Okay,

Alison Cebulla  1:47:00

but I only care so much. So this is a great little segue to ask about his own self care because yeah, like as an empath. As someone this worse if you take it all, you have to compartmentalize otherwise. Every day,

Kevin, psych nurse  1:47:16

it's a coping skill. And you know, and burnout is real, you know, it is so real. I mean, you can only you can only feel like pretty nice ads every single day. tragedies, yep. traumas,

Anne Sherry  1:47:33

you know where for them to go. Like, yeah, you fix them up a little bit and you're sending a back out and that's worst fucking and no home, no family, like no money in

Kevin, psych nurse  1:47:44

the outpatient prospects or you know, we so when Reagan going back to Reagan, he led everybody out. 1967 to nothing. Right, right. Right. Right. Right. Right. of homelessness and substance abuse. I mean, there's, there's there was nothing for them to to access. And so working in an inpatient setting it can be really frustrating because you could do a great job you spend two weeks with somebody you get them on some medicines. They're symptomology is down they're like yes you know, Methamphetamine is bad let's you know let's get and then they like okay, well here's your appointment in six weeks Good luck buddy years worth of meds I

Alison Cebulla  1:48:20

hope that you fucking hate it you know ride you've

Anne Sherry  1:48:23

got no home you got no internet.

Alison Cebulla  1:48:27

So we're coming back to just because, you know, just timely that we're having this discussion this week with the loss of my of my friend. But what had happened this year, um, was that he he was actually living at a sober living, then he he relapsed on meth. I think near the start of the pandemic. It's just that was so stressful for all of us. And if you already have mental health instability, I don't know how anyone did it. I I don't I don't know

Anne Sherry  1:48:55

what you brought Kevin, I that really just came to me now how terrible it was to get sent to the hospital in a pandemic and stay around lately. More isolation where you're supposed to be like, and fear of the virus. Yeah, yeah.

Alison Cebulla  1:49:08

I have a cousin who wrote me a letter from jail just being like, I'm just worried and they got to get me out of here because His thing was so minor. Luckily, they let them out. But I was worried he was gonna get, you know, the virus right at the beginning. Anyway. Yeah. So they so they let the he relapses, he's out of sober living. He's homeless. He's kind of bobbing around throughout the county, you know, Santa Barbara, Sam Lewis, whatever. And he hands you know, people who are like this, they they stopped to eat or they start to find money for their drugs. So they end up stealing things. And then so right, so then he goes to jail for a little bit. Then he gets put in a in a sober living here in SLO County. These are the worst places on earth.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:49:50

Can we just talk about putting a bunch of addicts underneath one the people who are addicted to medicine, I don't want to categorize people who have substance use issue? Yes, yes. Put them all under one roof, what that actual. And that's the thing about inpatient psychiatry, too, is like, let's, let's everyone has got their own trip going on. Let's put them all in one room. Room, the depressed, suicidal, you know, 80 year old with a walker. And then the young methamphetamine use user who's throwing chairs, you know?

Alison Cebulla  1:50:23

What is such a weird social experiment? I'm like, yeah, like, these are rough, rough, rough people, and I can remember him complaint, you know, people were stealing his stuff, you know, people, people are doing a lot of like, emotional abuse against each other, like a lot of like, manipulation. And like, triangulating you know, there becomes like, a whole system. And yes,

Anne Sherry  1:50:47

and there's like, often, often the people working there are sometimes not in certain state not qualified. Not really, are they're in it or creating the juice.

Alison Cebulla  1:51:01

Yes, yes. Yeah.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:51:02

Yeah, it's, it's there, as well. Yeah, it's not perfect system. And now Fetta mean, we just say, my goodness, it is destroying lives. And it is.

Alison Cebulla  1:51:16

I thought you're gonna go with America, literally destroying America?

Kevin, psych nurse  1:51:20

Well, yes. So my understanding is that it is so cheap, and so accessible, that 20 bucks was out for

Alison Cebulla  1:51:29

a week. And this ain't this ain't grandma's math. Let me just tell you Okay, cuz I used to be I as if you're a longtime listener, you'll know I was, I was a meth user. And the good old days. Let me get let me let me explain. Let me break this down, please. So I was using this in 2004. Okay, that that was the only year of my life that I was knowingly engaging in the meth trade. And, um, and so this was meth that was made here in the US usually, like at meth labs, where people were buying Sudafed, or fertilizers, and distilling the ingredients down or whatever. And all of that has been restricted now. So you actually don't find that many meth labs in the United States anymore. Just because you can't really get the ingredients we've really cracked down on those. There just aren't, you know, the Breaking Bad kind of thing. It's pretty rare. But Mexico sauce, such a great business opportunity. And they were like,

Kevin, psych nurse  1:52:27

Oh, we are united states loves their drugs. Americans

Alison Cebulla  1:52:30

love maths, we are going to figure out how to make this even more potent and even cheaper than ever before. And so what you've seen since you know, about the last 15 years or so, is just this incredibly potent and very cheap math flood the United States. And it's just decimating whole counties. Yeah.

Anne Sherry  1:52:53

Well, and it wouldn't. I mean, what we've taught like trauma being the gateway drug, if there is that, like all these systems that have broken down and people just like, oh hovered up in trauma, they're not going to be seeking it out. And then just the criminalization of the little person with a math, you know, it's like, in this book, the tightrope that Portugal that study where Portugal at the same time having that unfortunate go went with, okay, let's treat this as a public health crisis. And they provided all kinds of treatment. And they just decriminalize, you can have any drug, some amount of it. I love that, and they have their outcome. We're finally coming back around and saying, Oh, those are some really good outcomes. Maybe we'll try a little bit of that word. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:53:41

Imagine that. Let's highlight the problem. Yeah. And then care.

Alison Cebulla  1:53:45

Let's care about people. Hey

Anne Sherry  1:53:53

come on. Yeah, we got to wrap up

Alison Cebulla  1:53:58

with our wrap up. Weird. We say this every time but we are having Kevin back. Like we just like we get to talk about more.

Kevin, psych nurse  1:54:10

And maybe my mom will give me another little jewel. You know?

Alison Cebulla  1:54:15

Do not ask your mom. Just tell her to keep it to herself. Keep

Kevin, psych nurse  1:54:21

your feelings journal mom.

Anne Sherry  1:54:25

Your therapist was fine. You were overwhelmed. Kevin probably was an asshole to get out of the house, so you could maybe

Kevin, psych nurse  1:54:37

stuffed animals my window.

Anne Sherry  1:54:41

Just look away, Mama. Just drive away. You'll be fine.

Alison Cebulla  1:54:47

Kevin, I just have to say like from the bottom of my heart, like thank you for the amazing work that you're doing. And I know this hasn't been easy, especially during the pandemic. And yeah, So thank you

Kevin, psych nurse  1:55:02

guys and thank you guys for the work you're doing because it's so important. And I just get little little tokens of distress it was like okay, well listen to this podcast can spirituality. Okay? Can I just say I just I don't know world I guess I mean episode they're talking about trauma causing cancer. Yes

Anne Sherry  1:55:27

Okay, three times Kevin. I played it three times. And I was like, that's like no Yeah, yeah, the loonies are on the outside is what's happening here that's the crazy shit yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, listen,

Alison Cebulla  1:55:43

yeah, okay. Yeah. Well for

Kevin, psych nurse  1:55:45

having me

Alison Cebulla  1:55:48

so much.

Anne Sherry  1:55:50

And I'm glad Allison this time said burn it all down. I thought I was the emotional burn it all down. So

Alison Cebulla  1:55:55

I'm, I'm fed up this week. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, thank you. Okay. Love you.