35 - Neurodivergence & Childhood Neglect—with guests Dr. Michelle Livock and Monique Mitchelson
We talk with the hosts of The Neurodivergent Woman podcast, Dr. Michelle Livock and Monique Mitchelson.
What is neurodivergence?
How the needs of neurodivergent children can be neglected and the long-term impacts.
As always we end with the "Feelings Wheel Game" where we practice naming feelings and feeling them in our bodies. This is a great practice for healing trauma, mindfulness, and body presence.
The Neurodivergent Woman podcast website
Audio mastering by Josh Collins
Theme music by Próxima Parada "One Cloud is Lonely" and "Hannah Hannah"
Guest Bios:
Dr Michelle Livock is one half of the Neurodivergent Woman Podcast team. Michelle is a neurodiversity affirmative Clinical Neuropsychologist. She specializes in assessment and diagnosis of neurodiversity. She believes strongly in the power of cultivating self-awareness, compassion, and resilience and she is passionate about the intersection between women’s mental health and neurodiversity.
Monique Mitchelson is a neurodivergent Clinical Psychologist who specialises in treating trauma. She is passionate about neurodivergence, particularly in women and girls, and she works with many clients who are neurodivergent. Monique focuses on advocacy work and adapting trauma treatment within a neurodiversity affirming framework. She is the other half of the Neurodivergent Woman Podcast.
Show Notes:
Intro:
Interview:
Transcript:
Alison Cebulla 0:05
Welcome to latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.
Anne Sherry 0:09
And I'm Anne Sherry. We are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.
Alison Cebulla 0:19
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal.
Anne Sherry 0:28
latchkey kids are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set our toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do
Alison Cebulla 0:45
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our spiny prickly parts keep people at a distance.
Anne Sherry 0:51
Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about.
Alison Cebulla 0:55
Sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.
Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the kids who were comforted by drugs and alcohol.
Alison Cebulla 1:04
Sometimes we were the adults who grew up not realizing what we didn't get
Anne Sherry 1:08
whether you're a latchkey, an urchin or a friend. You are wanted
Alison Cebulla 1:13
here
Hey, man, hey, I
Anne Sherry 1:27
for 1am in the morning,
Alison Cebulla 1:29
I know hi from nice France. So random.
Anne Sherry 1:33
So random. Truly winging it this week on our
Alison Cebulla 1:39
then I know I forgot to bring the microphone. So my audio is today is not great. But we'll we're here. I'm super stoked to record an episode. Um, what are you listening to? What are you reading? Ooh,
Anne Sherry 1:54
you know, what I'm listening to is you will to what's her name that we talked about last time? The six part episode, part podcast, what's a code? Like? Halfway through the gateway? About to
Alison Cebulla 2:13
what is Yeah, we talked about that in the last episode, because I had just said that.
Anne Sherry 2:18
I'm here that we're lacking hugely in providing people meaningful mental health and understanding. And she's just like, Okay, I'll fill it in. And she's not doing good stuff.
Alison Cebulla 2:33
So funny, though, because I went looked her up on Instagram, she I'm getting ads for her stuff now. And I have so many people that I know, follow her. And so I'll just stop her.
Anne Sherry 2:47
I mean, I appreciate it. I can feel the goodness in her intention. And yes, it just narcissism. Is it just narcissism? Yes, it is. Actually, I
Alison Cebulla 2:58
don't think there's goodness, I think it's just narcissism.
Anne Sherry 3:01
Okay, I've got the answer. I'm going to fix you. And every time it's like, yeah, that sounds pretty good. Yes. I've been to some therapy workshops, where it's freaky, and we're like, screaming and get some shit out. And like, you know, there's one where he's like, what's going on? I was like, I've been to a workshop like that, where I've like, let it let it rip. But I'm not channeling. You know, it's just, it's actually my emotion. So anyways, there's like a mic. All that shit doesn't necessarily freak me out. But then she has to run it through this filter. Of like, no, that's actually your dad that showed up. Like, literally, she says literally, like 100 times. Like, it's not her fucking dad. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 3:44
it's not I hate that part. Oh, so that I hate that part.
Anne Sherry 3:48
Then it becomes this like, Guru worship, you've got the power. Anytime somebody's saying, I've got the power. I own it. Follow me.
Alison Cebulla 3:57
I've got the answers. You need to run in the other direction get out because a lot of what she's doing makes sense. But like mainstream religion tells people that people are brainwashed. I was like, 30 I was like 31 or 32. Before I realized that God, him putting in quote, self didn't write the Bible. Right. That's how brainwashed I was. And I was an atheist.
Anne Sherry 4:23
I know. Well, I my curiosity is this is why these Instagram, people are doing so well. Because we do have this like, predisposition. Yes. To be like, yes. somebody's in charge. Who wants to take over like because it's Yeah, can you be a charge? Can you be in charge? Who's in charge here?
Alison Cebulla 4:44
Yeah, we've been taking charge. You and I have been talking about adulting and figuring out how to be an adult. That's right. And it's like, handing that power over to someone else to be the adult in the room.
Anne Sherry 4:55
Do not hand over your power. go to therapy, like I said what exactly that means but please meditate on that. And I don't have the answer. You don't have the answer. Like for so, so
Alison Cebulla 5:08
anyways, we're gonna skip struggle party today just because we I'm traveling and didn't bring all my equipment with me, but we're super stoked to interview Monique and Michelle from the neurodivergent woman podcast and yeah, so thanks for tuning in. Here it is
Anne Sherry 5:45
So, hi, Monique and Michelle. Welcome to latchkey urchins and friends.
Unknown Speaker 5:50
Hello. Thanks for having us.
Anne Sherry 5:52
Thanks for being here.
Alison Cebulla 5:54
Yeah, just to read your BIOS from the website really quickly. So we're joined by the hosts of the neurodivergent woman podcast, and we have Dr. Michelle Livock
Dr. Michelle Livock 6:08
yeah, Livock. Yeah. Always people always struggle with it so fine.
Alison Cebulla 6:15
and Monique Michelson and so Michelle is a neuro diversity, affirmative clinical neuro psychologist. She specializes in assessment and diagnosis of neurodiversity. She believes strongly in the power of cultivating self awareness, compassion and resilience, and is passionate about the intersection between women's mental health and neurodiversity. And Monique is neurodivergent, clinical psychologist who specializes in treating trauma. She is passionate about neuro divergence, particularly in women and girls, and works with many clients who are neurodivergent and unique focuses on advocacy work and adapting trauma treatment within a neurodiversity affirming framework. So thank you both so much for joining.
Unknown Speaker 7:02
Thank you so much for having
Anne Sherry 7:03
us. Nobel Peace Prizes as a therapist, who are now starting to identify women in particular, that we work in work, and now this is opening a tremendous number of doors. So I really appreciate what y'all are doing. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 7:20
I know, my mom is my my mom is a huge fan of your podcast. So it's really just so many so many people
Anne Sherry 7:29
in the United States, podcast, make it so that they're, you know, breaking down all the national international borders is
Unknown Speaker 7:37
such an incredible resource, I think, you know, just and that's one of the reasons when you can I wanted to do the podcast because I'm sure you guys can identify with this as well, you know, there's so much need. And it's so difficult, that kind of one on one therapeutic model, where there's just not enough hours in the week to get through everyone. And so doing things like podcasts, I think it's such an incredible resource. Yeah, absolutely.
Alison Cebulla 8:04
So first question first. Where are you latchkey kids? Are you Urchins which means that, you know, some childhood emotional neglect? Or are you friends and how do you know what kind of was the emotional environment of your childhood?
Monique Mitchelson 8:21
Um, so, for me, it was quite interesting because I grew up in a regional town in the bush and yeah, I don't think I was a latchkey kid,
Alison Cebulla 8:37
because my Does that mean I'm so sorry.
Unknown Speaker 8:39
Does that mean rural in the bush? Yeah. Like literally country? literally grew up in a rain forest base. Okay. Yeah. With pie thins and giant spiders. And giant prehistoric dinosaur bird called a cassowary. That used to come into our backyard and go into the compost bin and look for food.
Anne Sherry 9:03
Yeah, we went I went my kiddo. And I watched like, crazy things in Australia. And I'm like, I don't think we're going there. Like, no. Animals are, like intense. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 9:17
no, it's fine. Their friends.
Anne Sherry 9:21
Still here with us. So you made it right. Yeah, I
Unknown Speaker 9:24
did make it through. But yeah, it was interesting because my mum was a full time housewife. So she was physically present all of the time, but not emotionally present. So I would say I'd be more of an urchin. And my dad was the breadwinner of the family. So it's been interesting reflecting back on my childhood because I think my mom definitely no offense to my extended family, but I think my mom definitely tried her best. To improve on her situation growing up in that she cooked home cooked meals. The house was always clean. She sat with us and helped us do our homework. And whatever afterschool activity we wanted to do, she made sure that she drove us there, she sat through it, she was actually a very proud, involved parent from that standpoint. But it was more that she had grown up, I think, with emotional neglect herself. So anything to do with emotion, yeah, anything to do with the emotions or feelings, I think she just had no knowledge of that. And she, she is the type of person where if you tell her what you want, or need, she'll put 1,000% effort in and really try her best, but she just had no idea. So I remember growing up with us never having conversations about emotions, or I don't remember a lot of physical affection as well. And yeah, just just feeling, I think, quite alone. Like I remember asking her to, like, play with me. And she was too busy doing like housework. Or like cooking or cleaning to come and play like a lot of the time. So we've had conversations about it now. And something that is good about our relationship is if we do bring things up, she's quite open to having a conversation about it. She does acknowledge, you know, like the limitations of her childhood, and we've both gone to therapy, like our own individual therapy to work through things. That's great. Go, yeah, it has been good. But yeah, I mean, it was difficult to because I also grew up with significant domestic violence from like, my father as well. And I've had an estranged relationship with him. Yeah, and he hasn't really gone to therapy or done a lot of self reflection. So we have quite a limited relationship. But yeah, it definitely impacts you. And I think with the neurodiversity side of things, I can definitely see the compounding layers of both my parents having, you know, the typical, I guess, childhoods of baby boomers, with the silent generation parents. And then I can see the threads of ADHD and autism running through both sides of that family and also intergenerational trauma and neglect and alcoholism and things like that. And then, you know, both my parents were, you know, I can see neuro divergence there in them. So like, I got my diagnosis of autism last year, my brother just got his diagnosis of ADHD. So like, the research says that, well, you know, if your kids are diagnosed, there's a 50 to 70% chance that at least one of your parents has either of those conditions. Yeah, and yeah, with me getting my diagnosis and looking into all of this led to my brother getting his diagnosis of ADHD. And my mum, you know, giving her a direction, she then goes and really researches it to like 1,000%, which I do as well. So she started recognizing a lot of traits of ADHD and autism and her that, you know, had never been picked up, but 100% there. And I can see a lot of traits of autism in my dad as well. And we haven't really talked like, I haven't seen him for six years. And he recently sent me an email, because he follows my professional life, saying, oh, you know, I actually always thought I had ADHD. Because I was that naughty kid that would get sent out of the classroom. And he's always been in trouble in trouble air quotes, you know, his whole life. And that was so interesting, because he had no idea that my brother had been diagnosed with ADHD recently, and so independent of everything, he's started to recognize that he's neurodivergent, which is super interesting.
Alison Cebulla 14:28
Wow. Wow. Thank you for sharing all
Unknown Speaker 14:30
that much
Anne Sherry 14:32
in their love, Michelle. I mean, it's really, really hard. But
Unknown Speaker 14:37
yeah, yeah. So I think I grew up in a single parent household, so it was just my mom. And she had a lot of trauma that she was processing and dealing with. And so it was quite a kind of emotionally volatile house. You know, a lot of points and I think you know, once I got to my, so in my early childhood, you know, primary school years, my sort of strategy was very much just, you know, perfect student straight A's trying to do be the kind of best kid to kind of get that sort of emotional attention. Yeah. And then once I got into my adolescence, I sort of went the other way, and just became very, you know, quote, unquote, a difficult team. But then I actually kind of look back, and I think I wasn't that difficult. I was really good grades, and I wasn't doing drugs. And, you know, I was just, I kind of look back. And I think, actually, I think I was just a normal teenager. But then, you know, on reflection, yeah, similar to human ache, I, I think my mom had a lot of things that she was, hadn't dealt with, or didn't have the instruction manual in herself, the emotional literacy for herself. So she just didn't know how to manage or deal with anything that was, you know, big emotions. And that was very triggering for her as well. So yeah, and I think, you know, it's a really, really common story. And I'm sure you guys are, well, across that of the kind of, you know, Boomer generation, they're coming to it from their own sort of intergenerational trauma, their own sort of lack of emotional literacy. And the thing that gives me so much hope and so much, you know, I feel so positive about is, I really see that changing. I really see even, you know, just lay people, the emotional intelligence, I feel like, and maybe there's just because we're in this profession, but I feel like it's increasing so much, you know, just the general, excuse me, just a general understanding in the public of how do we recognize emotions? How do we actually connect with children as an emotional level and support their emotional development? So yeah, I think that's really positive.
Anne Sherry 17:02
Yeah, I mean, I'm in I live in Asheville, North Carolina, which is a relatively liberal town. So I tend to like say, Okay, what's happening here? I just say, it must be happening everywhere. Yeah. I think I want it to, but I mean, I'm amazed and my I have a fourth grader and like social and emotional intelligence is part of the curriculum. I mean, that's amazing bully. They don't allow them. I know, it's not like that everywhere. But this is becoming, you know, you hear trauma informed. Every year, the school this program has to be trauma informed. And so it's building and so I, you know, I go in and out of hope. We live in the terrible issues with automatic weapons here. And so you want to, you know, something terrible happens. And we're like, we're out of here. And it's hard to see that so but I also see the same thing. So and especially with the subject that we're here for it has been groundbreaking in my private practice. Jenna Janiero. What did the nurse Yeah, her book came to me and it just opened up for two or three women in my practice, it just changed everything. So I think maybe what isn't? Maybe you can help us understand what is this term neuro divergent? It's everywhere. Yeah, so
Unknown Speaker 18:27
really great question. And I think the way that I think about it is kind of from a bit of a historical lens, where, you know, when psychology first sort of came to be, so to speak, you know, psychology was sort of fighting for its place as a valid science, as you know, a discipline, as this is real. It's not just, you know, woowoo nonsense. So to kind of get that credibility, almost, it became really all sort of models itself on the medical model, which is very much disorder, diagnosis, you know, treatment, etc. And if you think of something like a medical condition, like blood pressure, right, there is a certain point where your blood pressure is not great, then you probably should do something about that that is a problem. Whereas when we're thinking about things like the human experience, like how our brains work, like mental health, there's so much variation in what is actually normal that it doesn't really make sense to have that really cut point. This is a disordered condition. You know, this is this point. Yeah, so neurodiversity movement is really moving away from that medicalized model of mental health, the human experience into a kind of broader understanding that, actually it's really positive and normal to have massive variation in how people process information, how people think about the world, people's internal experiences. And that's actually what have led us to be such a, you know, populous sort of advanced species, I guess that variation. So you know, things like autism, ADHD, bipolar learning differences, we're really now getting to a point where we're understanding that everything comes under this, you know, big spectrum of the human experience and the language around it, that's you so neurotypical, neurodivergent, neurotypical, a lot of people think that means normal actually doesn't. So typical just means common. Typical is the most common type of brain. So, you know, if we think about neurotypical people being the people who have sort of the brain type, that is the most common, and then we've got neurodivergent people, the people whose brains work a little bit differently, and we all have sort of traits across a number of different things, you know, we might say, all of that, like I do that, or that sort of fits with me. But when we're thinking about people who fit that criteria of neurodivergent, we're really seeing a brain that is significantly different from what the most common sort of brain processing or brain type is. And I really love the model, because I think it allows you then to particularly as a therapist, to sort of meet clients where they're at, and rather than, and, you know, I work a lot with children. So rather than being like, how do we fix this, how do we change this, you know, like, you know, blood pressure model, right, that that would make absolute sense? How do we fix your blood pressure? How do we get your blood pressure back into an appropriate range? That doesn't make sense when you're talking about experience or behavior? Because often there's nothing to be fixed? It's more about how can we actually help you live more easily in the world, and help you do the things or function in the way that you want to function?
Anne Sherry 21:49
Right? I'd love that. Because it's the sort of what I'm working with. I work with adult adults. And so a fair number of you know, the women and bolts in general have been through trauma or possibly not being diagnosed for neurodivergent. They mask they're like, Okay, I'll just figure out a way to fit into this neurotypical because that's sort of what they've been told. And so I almost wonder, like, are we maybe, like, we don't even you know, it's just like, Hey, who are you? Yeah. Could you tell us about that? Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 22:24
Tell us more about how this is affecting women in particular, why you felt like you wanted to do a podcast about women's issues.
Unknown Speaker 22:34
Yeah, I think with women in particular, women tend to, I guess, internalize that and you're neuro divergence more than boys and men and one of the theories around that is because of gender norms and societal expectations of you know, being the caretaker or being, you know, aware of not hurting other people's feelings. Being the good girl.
Alison Cebulla 23:05
Did you should either view read the the burnout book by the Nikolsky sisters, where they they come up with this term called human giver syndrome for women. I love that. I love that term. So, so healing to hear that. Really good to you.
Unknown Speaker 23:28
Yeah, so often, one of the factors that contributes to girls and women not getting diagnosed until later on in life until they burn out basically, and can't do it anymore, is the fact that they tend to mask or internalize more. And this is where as well like some of the studies around masking and masking is basically a strategy that people sometimes subconsciously take on or consciously take on to fit into neurotypical society and avoid, I guess, getting bullied or having like the negative impacts of being different to have the majority of the population, you know, perceive things thinks behaves. So it's a survival strategy, basically. And I'm sure people who have grown up walking on eggshells in families will be familiar with you know, that as a survival strategy. But yeah, basically, the research around masking is showing that women tend to mask more than men because of intersectionality which basically is acknowledging that women still do face more discrimination, particularly in things like medical research, vary and practice tests and assessments and just across society, even in terms of employment and education. Keishon so because of this additional discrimination that women face there, they've found that women do tend to mask more than men in school, educational settings and workplaces to try and avoid, like the negative consequences of being themselves, unfortunately. And the research is actually showing. And a part of I guess, this discrimination is that research into women who are autistic or ADHD is hasn't really been investigated until the past five years. And we're seeing like, a lot of studies explode in the last two years, which is crazy to think about, with how long you know, autism and ADHD have been around and been researched. But yeah, the the latest research is showing that masking actually increases anxiety, depression and suicidality. So it's placing a massive burden on people and it's actually physically and mentally exhausting. And when you couple I guess, being near diversion with experiencing perhaps a traumatic childhood emotional neglect, it's just layer upon layer, compounding on the person and making, I guess, yeah, living a fulfilling life as an adult really difficult and a lot to unpack.
Alison Cebulla 26:33
Yeah. When when we think about childhood emotional neglect, and then we think about neurodivergent children, that adds another layer of potential neglect of not getting the care that they need. Can either you say anything about what kind of care undiagnosed children like aren't getting?
Unknown Speaker 26:57
Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, great point. Excuse me. So I think, you know, the really tricky thing is that, as Monique said before, a lot of neurodivergent kids have neurodivergent parents, and, you know, a really big factor in what you were saying that Allison around, not getting that kind of those needs met or that, Matt, as we all know, we all sort of grow up, we experience our childhood. And we develop these sorts of strategies that help us survive that help us get through whatever it was that we experienced. And for parents, you know, as Monique said, the research around girls is only coming out really in the last two years. So most parents of neurodivergent girls are undiagnosed, if they are neurodivergent themselves. So likely, they've experienced all of these sort of implicit chronic traumas of being neurodivergent undiagnosed throughout their life. They've developed a lot of strategy around, okay, how do I Moss, that, how do I avoid demonstrating that, and then they have their child who is demonstrating these exact same traits. And that can be very triggering for lots of parents, and they can feel like, you know, oh, my God, no, no, I need to protect you by stamping this out of you. I need to make you be normal. Right, you so
Alison Cebulla 28:22
have an example of a treat to kind of make it feel a little more tangible for our listeners.
Unknown Speaker 28:28
Absolutely. So with autism in particular. So if we think about stemming, so doing behaviors that are they're just like swimming is just a stimulatory behavior. So it's self soothing behavior. So it's usually a repetitive behaviors or might be flapping is, you know, an example that lots of people know. Even having really intense emotions or getting really excited by something. We know people on the spectrum experience emotions really strongly. That's both the biggest strength and can be a really particular area of challenge as well. But particularly with joyful emotions. I mean, awesome, right? That's right, if you're really excited, really happy, but we might have a parent who they recall experiencing those types of emotions and responding like that as a child, and being bullied or, you know, having something really negative happened to them. So they might see their child doing that. And they might say, stop it, calm down, right? Really kind of trying to stamp out that behavior. And that's coming from a protective space, right? But that's also really harmful to the child because then the child learns, oh, that's not okay. And, you know, what Monique was saying before, around all of those negative consequences of masking. Something that I really like to share with neurotypical people in particular is, you know, often when we're kind of going through a lot of these traits and things we're talking about masking and talking about, you know, being someone else. A lot of people can think, Well, I do that, you know, that's not that unusual, like I you know, have a different persona so to speak, as I work self versus my relationship self versus my friend self. But the difference is shame. The difference is what's actually driving that need to pretend to be someone else. And also the intensity and the level with which you or someone else. So, you know, I am neurotypical, and I'm pretty consistent across, you know, all my different selves, right? There's slight differences depending on context, but I don't feel a sense of shame about not being who I am. Whereas when I have neurodivergent, women come through for assessment. One of the really common things that I hear is, you know, I come home, and it's almost like, I have to take my skin suit off, right? Like, I just feel like, I was a completely different person. And I felt like I had to be that person. Like, there wasn't a choice. So that shame and that intensity is the difference there. And that really to come back to your question, Allison, I think that really stems back from those childhood experiences of not feeling seen, not having those kinds of needs met in that basic sense of, yeah, you are, who you are beat you up. And the thing that I often the thing I often tell parents, when they're coming through, say, getting a child diagnosed, is, you know, if it's not a problem, it's not a problem. And that sounds like a truism. But really, it means that if the behavior isn't hurting anyone, it's not hurting the child. Why is it a problem? Why does it need to be corrected? And the reason the answer to that is, again, going back to this medicalized model of brain types and things like that. Well, it's a problem because it's not quote unquote, normal. Right? Got it. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 31:50
Wow. Yes. Just something I want to add there, like around the the masking, and sometimes not knowing I think what your needs are, I think a lot of kids at school. Yeah, just getting thrown surviving school. It takes all of that energy. And I think there's all in our Western culture, there's a lot of stuff about pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you know, if you need help put up your hand and ask for it. But it's actually not recognizing that a lot of neurodivergent kids and even adults don't know that, you know, they're struggling, or due to alexithymia. They don't know that they need help. You know, question my mom has sort of asked me is like, you know, many give you a struggling as a kid, why didn't you ever say so? Why didn't you ever come and ask for help? And it's like, oh, well, actually never even occurred to me that I was struggling. At the time, like never, yeah, yeah. It never occurred to me to ever ask for help from my parents or teachers. Yet, as part of like my diagnosis journey, we went back together and look through all of my score reports. And because I was almost always an academic high achiever. I think a lot of stuff got swept under the rug. And so both my mom and I were like, oh, yeah, like your score points from primary school are gonna be all good and high school like he was straight A student. We won't find anything there. But when we actually looked through a lot of the reports from primary school, and even high school, there were a lot of comments from teachers about my quote unquote behaviors. Like not ever asking for help being really silly and over excitable in the classroom, disrupting the class, being a nodal and questioning the teachers about things. And both my mom and I was so shocked. I was like, Mama, how could you have not like seen these in the report cards and be like, something's up here. And she's like, I don't know what happened. Like, I must have just focused on the good grades. And we were we were shook. My high school report cards, everything was an A, all the behavioral stuff was an A, but I would get a B or a C for my participation in the class with other peers. So
Anne Sherry 34:28
here's this thing of like, it's like down to you and your mom, why didn't we see it? But like I this this way of building it, in that we are looking at this because there's a I have an older brother that I am sure was ADHD and like, he was born in 1965. And there's a whole bunch of so the boys that I know we're ADHD, they're all deceased. You know, they all turned to I mean, we've lost a lot of kids, you know, a lot of lives are lost. So the whole store After being able to so I don't know, like speaking maybe. So I kind of have two places we just speaking to the structures here. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 35:08
we don't have very human centered. No, we don't. Anything
Anne Sherry 35:13
that is be a good work. I mean, if we really get down to this, the capitalism says how do we make this this has to be rooted in like, Oh, if you aren't, yeah, here, do these things and then you're a good worker, and we'll just like forget the rest of it. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 35:29
100% 100%. And this is why intersectionality as a therapist is so crucial, particularly, you know, thinking about the massive shift and change, I feel, I'm interested to hear if you guys have kind of seen it as well, where you are, but I feel like there's been a massive shift in post COVID in our understanding of our value as human beings, and I feel, you know, have a lot of hope that we're sort of coming out of this very normative, you know, capitalist centric mentality that exactly as you're saying, and your entire value as a person is how productive you are, and how much you can profit, you know, and how much you can give back to that capitalist system. That doesn't work for most neurotypical people. And it absolutely does not work for neurodivergent people. And so, you know, it's almost like the neurodivergent are the canary in the coal mine. Right? It's sort of like, okay, like, yeah, starting to see this isn't working. But you know, I think that it's a message for all of us. But yeah, I agree with what you were saying there and around, like school systems and being very, you know, the issue is how much you know, how can you be productive, etc.
Alison Cebulla 36:49
How can you conform? Oh, really isn't? How can you just sit in your seat and do what everyone else is doing? And there is no room for for divergent anything, right? I mean, yeah, that is wild. Sure
Anne Sherry 37:04
of like, even I've watched, you know, my kiddo. He was early on the early end of going to school, and he couldn't sit still. And he I could see him starting to like, like, fold in on himself in first grade. Yeah, feeling the shine, and they're like, well, it's not a, you know, the kids that finish first get to go to recess, and you haven't finished. And this is an advanced school, you know, kind of a, I don't know, like, not, you know, trying to not do the norm. And I was like, you know, they're not, it's not a punishment, we're just giving them more time and like, do a six year old, that's some punishment, it's a punishment, and his body has everything in him need his body needed to move, but he didn't finish his work. So Oh, my
Unknown Speaker 37:49
God. And I could rant on this for literally hours. It because I work a lot with kids. It's, you know, in the school system, and mostly neurodivergent kids, and it is so mind blowing to me exactly what you were just saying that it's like, okay, he's not finishing his work, because his body isn't having what it needs. He's not actually getting his needs met. So it's not even if you think about it, from a work point of view, he's not going to be able to finish his work, if you continue to deny him what his body needs, you know, how about we are meeting children where they're at thinking about and helping them reflect on? What is it that I need? And the problem is, even if they're able to reflect on that and ask for it, often, the answer is no. Right? You know, it, you know, they're they've kind of done the work of coming forward and saying, Hey, can I please have this or this is what my body needs, or my body's telling me X, Y, Zed. And the teachers like, well, how sad to that, you know, sit down and continue to do your work. So, you know, I think this kind of goes back to one of the reasons why girls are very much under diagnosed. Because girls often spend a lot of energy holding all of that together, and the school day, and then absolutely releasing at home. And I have so many clients that have come through parents getting their girls diagnosed, and they struggled throughout that child's entire primary school, because teachers have said, she's a delight. She's an angel school. She's so perfect. You know, she is such a pleasure to have in the class. And the mom is saying really, because she strips all her clothes off as soon as she gets in the car and screams you know it and it's just the lack of belief and like, oh, well, what are you doing wrong then? You know, because she's, she's fine at school. So I think you know, more understanding of what actually again it's that emotional literacy right how to different people respond to and deal with distress or stress and realizing that the actual like the same internal acts variants can be manifested in two different ways or multiple different ways for different people. Whereas you might have the externalizes that are flagged as a problem, you know, in inverted commas early on, because they're the ones you know, disrupting the class throwing chairs around the room, whatever. The internalizes are just quietly having a meltdown. internally. It's not flagged, right, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 40:21
And I actually find that it's the internalizes that present to therapy the most often as adults. So most of my clients because I mainly work with adults, adult women, who have somehow made it through childhood and adulthood with their strategies in place. And then what ends up happening is they go through a period of challenge where perhaps they've started their own business, which places an executive functioning load on them, or maybe they are in the process of having children, or, you know, a parenting, which again, places an additional emotional and executive functioning load on you. And what they found is that the strategies that have gotten them through life no longer work, when they place those additional, I guess challenges and tasks on top of, you know, then your divergent brain, and then having that experience of emotional neglect or childhood trauma, and then it all comes crashing down, or people reach a state of burnout, because they've been trying to live like a neurotypical and really beating themselves up, because they trying to force their brain into a box that doesn't fit it, and live a lifestyle life and neurotypical and consistently feeling like they're failing and feeling like why can everyone else juggle all these things? And I can't, yeah, and that's when they come in for help. And I don't know about you, but I noticed a pattern in my clients that were presenting where, because I do mostly trauma work, I do long term therapy with people who've had significant childhood trauma. As I've worked with people over the years, first, we were working on the childhood trauma. And then as I became aware of the neuro divergence stuff, I referred a lot of my clients to go get investigated or get a diagnosis of who was fitting the neurodivergent criteria for me. And yeah, the ones who ended up getting a diagnosis, it has actually been groundbreaking for us in terms of working through that childhood trauma, because it's helping them to make meaning of, okay, like, Why was my experience so difficult? And looking at the extended family stuff of okay, my family neurodivergent twos, did that play a role in the neglect of trauma that I experienced, not just at home, but also in the school system and not getting my needs met? And, you know, one of the modalities I use is EMDR therapy, to help people reprocess childhood trauma, and very fine that, yeah, it's an amazing, amazing therapy. And it's only really kind of taken off in Australia, I'd say in the last three years. Yeah, so. But with EMDR therapy, if you don't have the context, that if you don't have your brain packed full of information and resources, you can't actually then reprocess information, or it's a lot harder to reprocess past events and make meaning of them. So part of going through the diagnosis journey for people and people learning about their neurodivergent identity actually, really helps them to resource up their brain, put more information in that they can then reprocess their childhood trauma, and I've had people who were, I didn't know they had blocks in processing things, and we weren't making a lot of progress, because there was this key piece of their identity and meaning making missing. And then since being able to incorporate that it's been life changing for them and then being able to adapt trauma therapy and therapy in general to look at, okay, how can we get you to drop this shame and guilt, drop these neurotypical expectations and figure out like, what actually works for you? And, you know, go to that phase three of trauma therapy, which is like, yes, we're doing the trauma processing and processing memories and content, which is that phase two, but phase three is really okay. What do I want my life to look like now?
Anne Sherry 44:46
Love that. Yes, that's the differentiation piece or this this? It's coming to me now that we must have graduate programs aren't this isn't a significant part of an accredited graduate program. because it's I do internal family systems, which is sort of this insight oriented work. And I worked with these women. I mean, we did good work, nothing was shifting. You know, because it in with the neuro divergent diagnosis that there's so much more compassion for, you know, it brings this permission and compassion, like, no amount of I couldn't have done it differently. My, my parents, you know, they come from loving homes where there was just bafflement it all around, you know, and a lot of something's not something so that this thing, so I'm curious just hope like how to how to women how to therapists, like get curious about the therapists being willing to learn?
Unknown Speaker 45:44
Absolutely, I, I really feel like we're on the cusp of like, a new paradigm in therapy, like taking into account neurodiversity affirming therapy. And I feel like it hasn't reached mainstream awareness yet. But I feel like it is going to be in the next two or three years, I think there will be an explosion. Because yeah, it really is a mace, a missing piece of the puzzle. And, you know, for me, like doing clinical psychology, I did six years at university, you know, and we, we didn't really cover a lot of trauma informed practice, in in my degree. And we also didn't cover a lot of stuff around neuro divergence. We did very basic training, and autism and ADHD, and not a lot in how women present as well. So I feel like the training and the universities are not up to date in this,
Alison Cebulla 46:49
and they're just so male focused. I mean, I'm still so pissed every time I read like a relationship advice book that doesn't acknowledge the patriarchy exists. Yeah. How?
Unknown Speaker 47:02
How Allison? Allison preaching? Absolutely. Yeah, I completely agree. And I, you know, I guess, to just kind of piggyback off of what Monique was saying previously about, you know, being that sort of missing piece of the puzzle. In the same way, if you are treating someone who is of a minority ethnicity, or a minority gender, or you know, not the norm, or different sexuality, or whatever it is, it's like, without acknowledging that, and you know, the effects of systemic inequality, patriarchy, capitalism, all of these things that impact all of our lives in such insidious ways. It's like you're trying to do therapy with, you know, a massive barrier, you know, between you and the client. It's just, it's absolutely impossible. And neurodiversity and, you know, the impact of neuro divergence on individuals is one of those things as well, that I think, to be competent therapists, you know, we need to be anti racist, we need to have awareness of the patriarchy, awareness of capitalism. And we also need to be aware of people's neuro type, the way that people are actually processing and interpreting the world because you know, what you were saying before, and what's really interesting about these women that you're doing all this work with them, it's great work, they don't really have a whole lot of, you know, childhood trauma stuff, and yet nothing shifting. And I think, you know, the realization of actually just being undiagnosed neurodivergent is chronic, insidious trauma throughout your entire life, you know, it's that chronic feeling of, I'm a square peg in a round hole. And unfortunately, a lot of people try and hack off those extra pieces of themselves to be able to fit and that's where the trauma comes from.
Anne Sherry 48:56
Yeah. And, and that die of getting stuck in that find of, but my parents were amazing. I had everything you know, and so being able to, and there's
Unknown Speaker 49:06
so much shame. Yeah, absolutely. There's so much shame around that, like, I had such a good childhood. So why am I struggling so much? Why is this so difficult for me? Am I just a broken person? And, and having that kind of story, and this is, this is one of the reasons I absolutely love my job, you know, diagnosis, working kind of through a lot of this stuff, because I feel like you know, as humans, we need a story. We need to know why. What's the narrative? Why did this happen? Why am I having this experience? And I think one of the most beautiful things as mental health professionals that we can do is change the story for people, you know, give them that alternate way of viewing their experiences. So yeah, I think neurodiversity is definitely the missing piece of the puzzle, and we absolutely need more graduate training in you know, including that into the program. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 49:56
And I think sorry, go ahead. Money. Yeah, sorry.
Unknown Speaker 49:59
Um, And I think if it's not included, then you could actually be perpetuating as a clinician that neglect because of not wanting to address and look at your own beliefs and values around being neurotypical versus being near divergent. So like we have a duty as clinicians to stay up to date with the research, and really be in that best practice. So if you're not investigating these things in, you know, 2022, you really need to be otherwise you could actually be causing harm to your clients. And unfortunately, like the research says that up to 80% of people who are autistic also have a diagnosis of another mental health condition, the most common being anxiety and depression, as well as trauma. So there'll be many mental health professionals out there who have people presenting to them with other diagnoses, like anxiety and depression. And these clients are coming to therapy, and the usual therapeutic strategies, or the way that you're working with them isn't working. And a lot of clinicians will be like, Oh, why, like, maybe they're just a difficult client, or, you know, like, what, what's going on? So if we have this understanding of wow, we should really be screaming every client that comes to us with a diagnosis of anxiety, depression, trauma, borderline personality disorder, which a lot of women on the spectrum, unfortunately get diagnosed with, instead of autism, or, you know, they may have both, you know, yeah, we really need to be screening all of our clients for this stuff, because a lot of those long term clients that have been in therapy have tried lots of different therapists and therapy styles, but, uh, still not really finding that resolution, this could be that key piece of the puzzle for them, and you're going to miss it.
Anne Sherry 52:02
So what do you like, for myself? I'm, there's an OT in town that like is really helpful, because so it's more than just it doesn't the therapists? Yes, notice it. But what other professionals would y'all would you recommend, like what do as therapists come online with this? Who else should they be bringing in to support him?
Unknown Speaker 52:25
Yeah, so we know that a lot of women on the spectrum in particular, and even women who are neurodivergent, in general, have eating issues. So it's really common to have a history of disordered eating. So having a dietician that is neurodiversity informed, is really important as well, if that's an issue, and I'll let Monique as speak on this, but chronic health conditions are really common in neurodivergent women, and I'll hand the baton over
Alison Cebulla 52:56
to humans. We'll link to those. You guys have great episodes, I listened to the one on eating disorders. Loved it, you have a trauma episode. So just for our listeners, we will link to your podcast and a couple of maybe specific episodes like the trauma one in our show notes. You need to
Anne Sherry 53:12
binge their podcasts. Yes. Get in there. And what a long walk I run and we did
Alison Cebulla 53:21
an episode on schizophrenia and listening to your podcast, we actually discussed that episode on ours because we just loved it so much. And it really helped us understand better. So thank you, we'll link to those. Anyway, Monique.
Unknown Speaker 53:35
What I would really recommend is actually go and find who are your neuro divergent mental health clinicians in America or overseas because they're out there. There are many autistic and ADHD, bipolar psychologists, therapists, social workers that are doing a lot of good work in this area and providing resources and training to train other mental health clinicians and how to be neurodiversity affirming because it's I think it's really important to learn from people who have the lived experience themselves. Yeah. And so part of the challenges as well because of the stigma and I guess the generational difference in being diagnosed and picked up. It is difficult to find practitioners in your local area, whether they're an OT or speech pathologist or a dietitian or GP or health specialists, or psychologists or therapists that are neurodiversity affirming, like in Australia, and we mentioned in our episode with Annie, she had a lot of difficulty finding a dietitian that had a really good understanding of what it's like being autistic and ADHD and specializing in eating disorders, I think she found those one in Australia. So Well, so, so difficult. And that's part of why Michelle and I wanted to provide this resource and focus it on Australia, because there was there, there is a lack of resources out there for a adults, because many of the clinicians and resources are focused on children, I've had a lot of difficulty referring my adult clients who are autistic, to an occupational therapist that will actually see adult clients and then have an understanding of adult needs.
Anne Sherry 55:38
will then have the office not look like it's built for children to it's like I had exactly Oh, yeah, kids, but I'm going, you know, so yeah,
Unknown Speaker 55:46
exactly. So a lot of the resources and therapies and things like that is centered around children, because, you know, it's, it's still all focused on, let's fix these kids and turn them into neurotypical goals before they get to 18. And that's, quote unquote, too late. Okay, it's the supports and resources aren't there for how to live a meaningful, rich life as an adult who's narrative that origin and be a lot of the resources and clinicians. Yeah, there's so many niche areas, like there's not a lot out there for particularly focused on women who are neurodivergent adult women. So that's why Michelle and I started the podcast to get these conversations going and actually interview neurodivergent adult women. So we could give other people an experience of Yeah, what is what is someone else's lived experience? Like, and that's so validating, and, and helpful for people? So yeah, this this challenge is like, it's still a growing and developing area.
Anne Sherry 56:54
Can you we're gonna move towards our feelings game, but just one piece here, just the whole piece and the gifts because you know, as as women, you know, in adulthood, who start to unpack this, it's like, so much, you know, but like, the gifts and the hope to just keep going, like,
Unknown Speaker 57:16
yeah, yeah, for sure. So, oh, my God, so many guests. And it's, it's so funny. And Monique and I have talked about this previously, but I, I am not neurodivergent. But I think because I have a really dense family history of neuro divergence. I just all my friends and your introversion for some reason, I don't know what that says about me. But you know, the thing that one of the biggest gifts, particularly for autistic women, and this is something that has often been used as a negative, you know, for them to their whole life. But it's actually that really incredible and intense emotional intuition. So autistic women tend to be so sensitive to the emotional energy around them, you know, the, the communication style might be different in the sense of, they might, you know, particularly thinking about children and teenagers, they might kind of not into interpreting the same way as in neurotypical word, you know, particular nonverbal communication or whatever it might be. But the emotional intuition is incredible, right. And this is actually often why a lot of autistic girls who grew up in chaotic household or traumatic households actually have a higher trauma load than neurotypicals, who grew up in that same household, because the autistic girls are actually taking on so much more of that emotional energy compared to a neurotypical who tends to shield off a little bit more. So that emotional intuition is amazing. And this is often why autistic women has such a profound connection with animals. So you know, they often just have this really intuitive, beautiful ability to yet interact with animals. And this is where that incredible sense of justice and you know, macro empathy, as I call it, you know, what, what's just what's right like Greta turnback, perfect example of that, right? Yeah. So that's incredible. The ADHD brain, absolutely epic idea generator, so many ideas, so creative, so entrepreneurial, you know, my partner is an ADHD and we have, you know, the downstairs area of our house is just like the graveyard of hobbies past. But out of that, though, has come some really amazing things he learned to blacksmith, he, you know, did all of these amazing things. So that creative mind is just such a benefit and you know, The problem is, when we interpret neurodiversity or differences as a negative, we actually as a society, lose out massively, because we're shutting down all of those incredible differences in thought and processing and intuition. And saying it has to be this, which is so boring.
Anne Sherry 1:00:23
I mean, I see this is this is resistance, you know, like, because all of what you just said, that doesn't fit in the capitalist good worker. Yeah. Paradigm. Yeah. And so I tell my clients often, like, we're doing resistance work here, like for you to become you. This is though and then out there doing enough I'm like, just become you. Yes. And I was gonna die. Yeah, I'm gonna change a lot.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:48
Yeah, absolutely. And one of the strengths that I would say about being autistic is just having that obsessive interest in things. Like our boss, who is neurodivergent likes to jarque that any invention that's actually furthered humanity, likely came from someone who is near divergent, it's that person that is really interested and really curious about something and thinks in a different way and has the obsessiveness to go out and actually push you and create and invent new ways of doing and thinking about things. So like, a lot of the innovations that we have in technology will likely do to neurodivergent people who are the at the forefront of thinking differently and creating new solutions to things. And suddenly, that obsessive interest has really helped me get far in what's important to me. And just a great example of this that I joke about is when I was a kid, my mum bought me the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory book. And she bought it at a book fair, I think in June, and then told me that it would be my Christmas present that year. So she hid it away, I found out where she hid it in the house. And every day, I would think about that book. And think about I can't wait to read it at Christmas. So for six months, every day, that book was what I thought about what I wanted, and I was like, I'm gonna get this book. So yeah, just that persistence. I don't know if other people think that way. But that's really helped me actually find, I guess, a niche in my Korea as a psychologist because my interest now is people in psychology and you know, all things that no one they call me the encyclopedia at work. And no one else can just quote these random facts or like rates as many books as I do about the topic, and I wouldn't have that without that, I guess. Yeah, really in depth
Anne Sherry 1:02:58
interest. I mean, it feels like neuro typicals have screwed this world up. And this feels really unfair that neurodivergent people are going to have to come in and think how to solve climate crisis and how to so I apologize. Yeah, that's not fair. Yeah. So yeah. I think we're at our feelings. Well, yeah. Feelings wheel in this is you. You don't have
Alison Cebulla 1:03:26
to I reluctantly participate in this every time we record but trying to I just really quick, though, and because you just the way you said it, I think I would tweak it a little bit. It's not neuro typical, or whatever people that have learned. It's no, it's, it's normative. It's wanting it's that want for people to
Anne Sherry 1:03:46
conform? Yes, yes. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Right. But it's a mess out there.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:55
Yeah, I'll for sure. And I need to know, realistically in, if you look in nature, you know, nature is constantly trying to get back to homeostasis balance, right. That's the natural state of everything. And, you know, the whole kind of spectrum of what is normal, what is the human experience? We actually need all of that. We need everyone participating. And the problem is, it's been swung way too far. On one end, Blizzard and patriarchy has had a really big role to play in that. And now, thank God, we're close correcting. I think I think it's swinging back. Yeah. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 1:04:39
Okay, thank you. So we have a feelings wheel. It's just feelings wheel.com. And what we'll do is every one of us will get a feeling word and you'll just name a recent time when you felt that feeling and what it feels like to feel that feeling in your body if it makes it if it has that feeling. So I'm just going to Kind of. We'll start with. Let's start with with Monique if you if you don't mind, and I'll try my best guys. Make my hand go around the wheel and just tell me when to stop. Stop. vulnerable.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:22
Now what was the what do I have to do with it again? What was
Alison Cebulla 1:05:31
just a time you felt it recently? And what if it has a feeling in your body? what that feels like?
Unknown Speaker 1:05:36
Oh, um, I think actually just coming on podcasts and talking about you knows some of my lived experience. Yeah, and even just saying the words out loud. Yeah. Like I'm an autistic psychologist. That definitely makes her feel vulnerable.
Alison Cebulla 1:06:00
And does it have a feel like does it have a sensation in the body?
Unknown Speaker 1:06:05
Yeah, and this is something I had to learn to work on. Because for sure, you know, had alexithymia growing up, but I would say I feel it in my like, a lower abdominal area. Yeah, it's uncomfortable.
Alison Cebulla 1:06:22
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Okay, and I'm going to make you go next. We'll switch off yeah, yes, digit. Yeah. Okay. Stop. frightened. Oh, frightened.
Anne Sherry 1:06:40
I've just recently become an adult and I feel less frightened in general in the world. So like, frightened. I'm okay, I'll go with the body sensation. First, when you said frightened, I did have kind of this. This sensation across my whole torso. It was just like, jumping back a little bit or, like a tensing and like I moved back from myself. But actually, I had, I want to say a dream because I am now because Monique, you had talked about growing up with all these snakes. And I was like, I had a dream I woke up quite frightened this morning. Some bizarre they were I was stuck in this car. And there were like these huge snakes just like circling around and trying to like jump out in the car wouldn't stop and I had to jump out of a moving car. And they were normal. I don't know what Freudian thing is with
Gaston because I'm, like responsible for the zoom or process processing some stuff around that. So it's snake related. Yeah, but it was like, yeah, so typical response, I guess. From Yeah, it was the snakes. Oh, thanks. Yeah, thanks. Thanks count. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 1:08:11
yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay, Michelle, tell me when to stop stop Nam.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:23
Oh, god, okay. Now um Okay, so I'm going to be quite vulnerable with this now. Just a bit of a callback to as many I have recently been actually doing a lot of work myself with around you know, my response to when people that I care about you know, my partner in particular people I'm emotionally close to has emotional reactions or responses because I think a really big coping mechanism for me in my childhood there was a lot of really big emotions and the house was just shut off from that just that classic kind of avoidant now, I'm not engaging with this. As an adult, I And recently, I've really been working a lot on tuning into that feeling when someone else not my client, so if you're my client, and you're listening, I don't feel numb when we're talking very much my partner. So you know, when he is having a big feeling about something, I yeah, my body tends to go into this just shut down. Like, I feel nothing. I'm not engaging with this at all. And it's interesting, you know, where do I feel that in my body, usually when I feel emotions, I'm a very chest and throat person. So I usually feel all of my emotions in my chest, around my heart and in my throat, but when I Feel that numb sensation it is literally like someone's flipped a switch on like on my neck and then my whole like I don't feel anything in my body I just feel completely disconnected from the experience. So yeah, a little bit TMI there so
Unknown Speaker 1:10:22
the podcast for
Alison Cebulla 1:10:31
vulnerability. Yeah I know we just we have an episode with with embarrassing poop stories so we go there
Unknown Speaker 1:10:42
I love talking about pre patch any special interest
Anne Sherry 1:10:48
you're coming back you'll be on the poop poop episode. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 1:10:55
We try and get different listener stories. Okay, and will you tell me when to stop? You said it already.
Anne Sherry 1:11:06
I even I just realized you know, I did not say it. I finished your sentence. So we'll go okay, go go go. Okay, now stop. Now I wonder what where do you stop known before? So anyway?
Alison Cebulla 1:11:20
Okay, I got to spare.
Anne Sherry 1:11:25
Great one to end on.
Alison Cebulla 1:11:27
Yeah, what's that like? Hi guys with some despair. Yeah. So in March, I quit my job my where I worked in trauma, promoting the health science of of adverse childhood experiences just because I was getting really overwhelmed with looking at this data child abuse all the time. And but then I really sunk into a pretty good depressive, like about a week that was pretty bad. And it's really close to numb. My body really shut down. I even actually, like went to urgent care because my hands were turning blue. And they were like, Oh, this is Raynaud's. And it's just like literally psychosomatic I was I was like, my own mind was making my body shut down. Because I just kind of like, either needed to like really unwind from that job, or I was feeling kind of maybe like lost and unsure what I needed to do next. And the despair really was like a big fog that just came in set. All you know, over my mind and my body and I couldn't move. I'm normally very athletic, running marathons, trail runs, and I couldn't get up I couldn't get up and move my body. And I was like actually making my body feel sick. And so that's a recent example of despair for me and a really just felt heavy just a feeling of like almost like my body was a weighted blanket. And that just couldn't just couldn't mobilize so despair
the feelings are welcome.
Anne Sherry 1:13:21
Exist Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 1:13:26
So much. That was amazing.
Unknown Speaker 1:13:28
Yeah. Thanks so much for having us. It's so much fun.
Unknown Speaker 1:13:32
Thank you so much.
Alison Cebulla 1:13:33
I love love that
Unknown Speaker 1:13:34
you guys end on the feelings. Well, like you turned it around on the therapist
Anne Sherry 1:13:43
started this and as the therapist, I was like, I hate this, like you're
Alison Cebulla 1:13:49
getting into and
Anne Sherry 1:13:53
I say take my advice. I'm not using it. So.
Alison Cebulla 1:14:00
So thank you.
Anne Sherry 1:14:01
Thanks so much. You guys. Thank you. Sunday morning. Yeah, okay, sounds
Unknown Speaker 1:14:08
good. Sunday's. Great.
Alison Cebulla 1:14:11
Okay. All right. Okay. Bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai