S2.E2. Radical Access is The Future of Mental Health Care
Our World Mental Health Day episode is a conversation with Philip Butler, Ph.D., about the future of mental health care: one that puts healing in each person's own hands. We talk about the barriers to accessing healing and mental health care, especially for Black people.
Dr. Butler's solution is to put the Internal Family Systems therapy methodology in everyone's hands through his Seekr Bot app so that we can access healing anytime anywhere. “The Seekr Project is part of a larger plan to bring culturally relevant artificial intelligence to smart devices.” Since Black people in the United States have historically been oppressed economically, Dr. Butler went out to create a way for folks to access care and healing no matter their budget.
Tune in to hear how artificial intelligence therapy can help us all heal on a massive scale, eliminating gatekeepers, stigma, and labels.
Dr. Philip Butler is an interdisciplinary scholar in neuroscience, technology, spirituality, and Blackness. He writes on artificial intelligence, disruptive ethical models, and constructive speculative Black futurisms.
His first book, Black Transhuman Liberation theology explores the potential for Black people to integrate technology and spirituality for liberation. He is the editor of the forthcoming volume Critical Black Futures which takes a critical and speculative approach to wildly imagined and critically examined future worlds yet to exist.
His interdisciplinary work, deep love for Black communities, and desire to construct digital consciousnesses associated with racial and cultural identities are directed towards making difference normative in emergent technologies and future realities.
Learn more about The Seekr Project and Seekr Bot App here
Seekr Bot on Instagram
More links:
Audio mastering by Josh Collins.
Music by Próxima Parada.
Show Notes:
No Bad Parts (Book) by Richard Schwartz*
Parable of the Sower (book) by Octavia Butler*
“The goal of therapy should never be to help people adjust to oppression,” is a quote by Carmen Cool.
*buy with our Amazon affiliate link to support our podcast—thanks so much!
Transcript:
Alison Cebulla 0:06
Welcome to the latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.
Anne Sherry 0:10
And I'm Anne Sherry we are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.
Alison Cebulla 0:18
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal
Anne Sherry 0:28
latchkey ergens are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do
Alison Cebulla 0:43
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our spiny prickly parts keep people at a distance.
Anne Sherry 0:49
Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about.
Alison Cebulla 0:53
Sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.
Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the teens who found comfort in drugs and alcohol.
Alison Cebulla 1:03
Now we are the adults who realize that our nurturance needs were not fully met. And we're healing that inner kid and breaking generational trauma.
Anne Sherry 1:11
So whether you're a latchkey, an urgent or a friend,
Alison Cebulla 1:14
you are wanted here
so Hey, Anne.
Anne Sherry 1:26
Hi, Alison.
Alison Cebulla 1:28
So this episode today is about ifs, and we are interviewing someone that he had met through ifs into an internal family systems, which is the type of therapy that an does s document so Atler Yeah, and he's, he's cool. He's, he's, he's very, very the interview was kind of trippy. It's like it's he's got some he's got some cool out there ideas that I just am really excited for y'all to hear. But we were talking about ifs. And you know, in an earlier episode, I had said that that book, no bad parts really helped me because I was looking at some of my parts and realizing, what are they protecting me from like my suicidal ideation because I have major depressive disorder. And lately, I just want ifs to go f itself. Like that's the mood I'm in. I'm like, everything does suck. It's not parts. It's, you know, done at Dick's words. He's I know that Charles Eisenstein too much.
Anne Sherry 2:32
You're now a rich, old white man.
Alison Cebulla 2:35
What does success
Anne Sherry 2:37
mean to me? I know I know. I know parts work is infuriating. Sometimes. I mean, I just
Alison Cebulla 2:45
I'm calling infuriated. Like yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I don't
Anne Sherry 2:49
know what happens however, we grew up this toxic world post still in the pandemic around you know, the planets dying. I'm like, Ha How do I find my own individual grief Joy expression of it's okay to be in this world where it's toxic as an F out there. I know many ways maybe I'm and then it's what I really hate is it's always back to okay, go back inside. See who's there? And I do think I mean that we have some parts protectors probably that like sneak the keys to the boss and we don't even know like we're asleep or something. And right are driving all over town. Recommend a shit mess and stuff. This is one of the metaphors of parts like you don't want you generally don't want parts driving the bus. You know, driving the bus.
Alison Cebulla 3:43
Got it. God Yeah,
Anne Sherry 3:45
so I think so we both have a sneaky parts that get hold of our buses and drive them and like crashed off and the world does actually like me,
Alison Cebulla 3:58
tangibly. Very bad. And, but it does our interview with what's her name, Susan Lin, where, you know, she's talking about how much fear was in her childhood. Yeah, because she thought that they were gonna have nuclear war. So it's like, it always feels dark. So it's kind of like it's up to us. Yeah, to like, get out of that because it's always gonna feel bad. But with like, the species die off, you know, Bolsonaro and the rainforest. Yeah,
Anne Sherry 4:26
you know, like it just and and he's I saw that headline, where anyways, he's like, I'm not leaving this. It'll be a war to take me out. I'm like, Okay, awesome. Yeah, way to go. I know. I don't. Yeah, what do we gotta keep going? Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 4:42
just continue to be just the most mind bogglingly worst interview processes of my entire career. I have been an adult now for like a good two decades. And I have never seen this and all of my friends are saying the same thing, something is very wrong. It's a very, very, very wrong. Yeah, like the ghosting the like, not like like getting back to you like weeks later like oh sorry. Like that then naps notice of the interviewers and stuff like not even one person has asked me like, how are you? COVID? You know, like I lost four loved ones this year like baby want to just ask like how are ya know, people just died?
Anne Sherry 5:28
I don't know if we can like, take that pin or something or we don't know how to act right anymore like I'm taking Spanish in person. And like I went to this is the first classroom I've been in, I guess in three years. I think you know, I've gone to church and things like that. But this is like a classroom, it's, you know, who knows who's gonna show up to take Spanish like, so it's a big ol mixed bag of folks. And it felt like I was annoyed at questions that were being asked or I like was so judgy or so I didn't know how to act. Classes are like that. Yeah. Like, somebody's always happening on the desk. I was like, you're not at home, we can fucking hear you now. Like you gotta behave or something. I was like, You're not on mute, like stop tapping. It was really I didn't know how to talk to other people. She was pairing us up with people. And I was like, I don't know. It was really, really awkward or hell. Yeah. So I don't know. There's just a general I'm feeling this awkwardness and transition wise going through menopause, which I don't know when it started or when it's going to end but I just feel awkward in the world right now. Just it doesn't feel great. And I'm trying to do the maybe the parts work certainly, you know, got back with my therapist after and for three three months off for the summer. She went away and I was gone. But it was a mess. I mean, really in there she was she just kind of had to be like yeah, it's okay to and I was embarrassed showing up so messy to her. You that think? Yes, girl I have
Alison Cebulla 7:14
nothing.
Anne Sherry 7:15
It might be. I know I've using that. I'm using the the generational stuff. I've have people who come in that are your generation. I'm like, oh, yeah, you were told you could do and be anything. I'm so sorry. You can't. That's really hard, right?
Alison Cebulla 7:35
That was a terrible, terrible, terrible trick. A terrible trick.
Anne Sherry 7:39
Terrible trick.
Alison Cebulla 7:40
Yeah, we did a whole episode on it. Yeah, it saved my family. And all I got was this participation trophy. Yes,
Anne Sherry 7:45
it wasn't your job. And you're gonna be unraveling that till the day you die. It sucks. I think some of this I just have parts that are just tired. I'm tired of working. I'm tired of trying to clean up and I know the quote unquote I hate that quote unquote answer is like, okay, just be with the parts. I'm like, No, that's my personal drive. That's right. I know. We kind of thought of us wore it. To every one of us was
Alison Cebulla 8:15
like, I don't know, I've just been lying on the floor. Like I don't I don't know what who I am or where I am. And you're like pretty much same. Yeah, I'm like, No, one of us isn't like one of us has to pull the other one off the floor. It's I don't know,
Anne Sherry 8:29
let's just lay down get some gummies and just put put little plastic those little stars on the ceiling and just like create a constellation and just take out for like, I don't know, a year maybe. I know. The good news is who we're interviewing today the seeker app it really does work and it works every time I think to use it but my parts that don't want to get better that kind of I think that kind of are attached or something I'm still still unraveling so much I think we all are so but it works it takes you through right then in there you can go through a little process is app is brilliant. It's called seeker. Well, you know, we're gonna put everything out there but it's brilliant. And it just is it just a little bit this
Alison Cebulla 9:21
is a great interview though actually I speaking with people like Philip actually does make me I know where my find my joy. I loved talking to fill up so I did
Anne Sherry 9:31
this Yeah, I'm glad he's in the world.
Yep. Hello, everyone, we are so excited to be here with Dr. Philip Butler and I am going to read his By Oh, Philip Butler is an international scholar whose work primarily focuses on the intersections of neuroscience technology, spirituality and blackness. He uses the wisdom of these spaces to engage in critical and constructive analysis on black post humanism, artificial intelligence and plural, pleura versal. Future realities, we'll have you talk about that. He's also the founder of the seeker project, which is incredibly amazing, a distinctly black conversational artificial intelligence with mental health capacities. Dr. Butler is partner director of eye lifts my saying that right? I love
Philip Butler 10:40
that it's perfect. Some people say,
Anne Sherry 10:42
Institute I've never said the name out loud, where he leads the 8020 project where the institute works to change how computers see people relate to culturally, iterative, iterative languages and build the bones for a data ownership model that hopefully creates a relational framework for the way ay ay, ay ay is made around the globe. You we need you. Thanks for being here.
Philip Butler 11:13
Yeah, you're like, it's, I mean, is it one of those moments? Like, who's doing all that? Sometimes, and then other times, you go back and read stuff that you wrote, and I wrote that. Alright, cool.
I'm really glad to be here. Thanks for the invitation. I know, you all been very patient with me. And thanks for holding and making space for me to be here today.
Alison Cebulla 11:33
So happy to have you here.
Anne Sherry 11:36
You're so happy to have you. So the Allison you do the latchkey pieces?
Alison Cebulla 11:40
Yeah. So okay. So before we I think I like like, kind of before we dive into the interview, just really quick for our listeners, you know, we're kind of here because you launched a new app. If you could just say in a couple sentences, you know, what's your app about? And then, you know, then we'll we'll dive into some latchkey questions?
Philip Butler 12:00
That's a good question. So the app is sicker, you could look at either S E K, R O S, E, S, E, k r bought seeker bought in one or two sentences. It's, it's really just kind of like a conversational AI, almost like a like a pocket companion that can help you decompress and explore your emotions in real time. And so I think one of our goals was really just to be able to provide black folks with an opportunity to be able to engage with tools that I don't think many of us grew up with. I know I didn't, right. And so this becomes something that's readily available, easily accessible thing, because even for those in in a therapeutic setting, you know, you probably only see your clinician maybe once or twice a week at max. And so what are you going to do for the other hours in, you know, late night moments that you may or may not need to kind of, you know, feel what's going on and work through it.
Alison Cebulla 12:49
Thank you. And we're so excited to dive more into that. And it's and it's an awesome app again, and I both downloaded, I was using it today. And it's it's amazing. Congratulations on your app launch. It's such a huge achievement. Yeah, so the fun stuff. We're going to talk about your childhood.
Philip Butler 13:09
I'm not laying down on the couch.
Alison Cebulla 13:15
So yeah, latchkey kids, you know, we're kind of left alone at home a lot, you know, kind of physically ergens you know, we've kind of made this new term up urgence we're kind of emotionally emotionally abandoned or neglected, not all, not a whole lot of emotions being talked about at home. And so are you a latchkey? Are you an urgent or are you a friend, meaning kind of none of the above? And, you know, what was the emotional environment of your childhood,
Philip Butler 13:40
it's a great way to start. So I don't think I was necessarily, I don't think we were we left alone until I was a little bit older. So I me, I'm the oldest of three. So I do remember, like watching my, my siblings quite a bit. But I also remember being a little bit older when they happen. I felt like my, my emotional environment at home was was very interesting in the sense of like, my, I feel like my mom taught me how to love in the sense that I could always tell her my secrets. Um, so that was super helpful, because I think it translated in terms of dislike, I guess it's unconditional aspect of it's like, I was tired things I think I would get in trouble for or I tell the things that I was, you know, felt felt shame around, right. But she always, Yeah, mom, right. Me too. So I was it was always a space where I could be able to bring that to her without and I don't feel judged about it. Right. And so I was always grateful about that. And then, you know, my, my father, I think, my second or third generation military man. And so it was, it was very much like, you still had to learn how to operate in a world and so that that was what I'm grateful for, you know, a little bit more a little bit tougher. Because, you know, as much as I think we've come maybe at least kind of in the spaces that I've been in is, it's good to recognize, I guess compassion for yourself first before anybody else because that allows at least creates an internal environment where you know, you can do maneuver through that and still, I guess navigate through the external constraints or they started to curb ramps that may not necessarily allow for the same type of, I guess compassionate, you know, kind of exchange, if that makes sense. So I think I got a good balance of that.
Anne Sherry 15:15
So what what did you make as a kid for if I don't know if, if parents maybe weren't home, but like when you when you were able to get in maybe to the kitchen by yourself or feed your feed your siblings as well? Yeah. Great.
Philip Butler 15:29
Um, I guess if I have to, I think it was mainly pretty simple. And it's like so one thing that we don't have in our house now that we always have growing up was potato bread.
And so my mom gave potato bread. It was like, potato bread. It was it was a staple at the house. And I always make my peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on a potato bread with a glass of milk. And I liked it.
Anne Sherry 15:59
Oh, I can taste that. Right there. Yeah.
Philip Butler 16:04
Yeah. Yeah, it was good.
Anne Sherry 16:06
That was potato bread. Like was there a brand of it? Or was it did your folks did you make it or no potato I've seen so
Philip Butler 16:14
we So yes, we shall pursue warehouse sunbeam? No. So like Shopify warehouse. I grew up in Maryland, like 20 minutes north of DC. I don't remember the name. I mean, like the name brand of it. But we always get to potatoes. Like very soft, very pillowy, like regular bread.
Anne Sherry 16:32
Okay. All right. I was thinking about bread balls. Do you ever do bread balls where you pull the crust off, and you'd roll it down into a ball like the size of a dime and just eat an entire I hope? I hope
Philip Butler 16:44
this was this is new to me. I think I've seen it before. Myself.
Anne Sherry 16:50
Yeah, it was probably why my brother has gluten intolerant. Like four loaves of bread after school, so Okay, yeah, yeah,
Philip Butler 16:59
yeah. Because it feels like, that'd be hard to not digest, maybe because it's so like condensed down.
Alison Cebulla 17:06
And the dirt from your hands. Let's not even go there.
Anne Sherry 17:09
Oh, man, that is like why I have a really awesome immune system. I think, basically bread and dirt. So the first I guess carrying on like, what the seeker app, sometimes this, like, what motivated you to take it to this level? Or when did you get involved in you were you're a professor, but you moved over into the sort of the mental health realm. So I'm just curious, like, what what was your pathway to that?
Philip Butler 17:39
No, that's a great question. So I tell the story pretty pretty often, I think in terms of like, so I when I went to go do my doctoral work, I was initially going to study like neuroscience and spirituality, like those two spaces kind of broadly. But my Yeah, I thought it was cool to like I was I was I was doing studying ethics and church history. Candler do my masters and I told one of my, I guess, one of my mentors at the time, you know, what I was thinking about, he's like, you know, go check out the schools, I was because East Coast schools really having like, looked at the body in the same way. And so I took my, I guess, took my talents to the West Coast. And this, this was something I was able to study there. But during my time there, like I started coursework was like the summer, kind of after Trayvon Martin. And then I finished my coursework, and in the span of those two years was Trayvon Martin, all the names in between and Sandra Bland. And so I had to really kind of reimagined what I was going to be doing my scholarship around and, you know, thinking about, you know, this kind of present reality for black people that just wasn't it and, you know, what does it mean then to, you know, imagine a different future and then work towards that. And so, taking what, initially, were kind of these broader strokes, you know, neurosciences, where is where I start thinking about the future. And this is where, you know, constantly like technologies. And I really was curious about like, what's, what's not going away? And what's going to be even more pervasive? And that's where technology comes in. And then kind of focusing that around blackness, like how do we not just preserve preserve black life, but how do we allow it to proliferate and for black folks to thrive and to be in spaces where be in space in the realities that they want to be in and not necessarily being the subject of somebody else's imagination. And so this became kind of the driving force. And then, you know, thinking about how to use technology and spirituality as kind of these deliberative tools, right, if you're working towards a goal, that see me that seemingly and persistently continues to have roadblocks that are kind of like emotionally attacking and kind of these almost like the cycling of like death and state sanctioned violence, whether it be through like Twitter, or any of your news feeds has its own kind of like psycho physiological reactions that it sets off on people. So how do you work and maintain an internal space that's grounded and clear and you know, responsive to the outside without necessarily being overcome with that, and being and being able to read. And so it's mainly the spirituality component, and this mental health component, see them, it's kind of one of the same. And so if we can keep folks in a grounded space and connected space, then I think that that will allow people to kind of stay the path and not necessarily get thrown off too much as they continue to, you know, work towards a different world.
Alison Cebulla 20:23
Can you tell us more about spirituality? And kind of maybe like, what your definition of that is? And why you find that to be so important for mental health?
Philip Butler 20:35
No, it's a great question. So for me, I, I tried to, to strip almost everything away from the term and, and kind of bare bones it and so my definition of spirituality is like, kind of like your internal code, or just your way of life, you know, like people can proclaim or declare belief system or structure or tradition, but I'd argue that whatever they do regularly is what they actually believe in, right? You could argue No, you wouldn't do it if you didn't believe it to be so even though you you hope to believe something else that you may say you believe something else. And so if we can maybe look at, you know, people's routines and everyday, you know, kind of rituals and ways of by going in and approaching the world as as the, the material for their spirituality, then I think it becomes a bit more honest, but also allows people to, to now wrestle with what's actually there and not maybe like some kind of declarative stance or kind of nominative us alignment with a particular tradition, even though people's actions and whatnot made maybe somewhere totally different.
Anne Sherry 21:37
Thank you, me what I what I hear, because I know that you have the internal family systems as a grounding force for you, which we've talked about. We posted in the show notes every time but like, what's happening in your present, almost trusting this present experience and not judging it as much would you say are like observing, being curious about this? I'm curious, I read on I was watching your Instagram to like, your the religion that you grew up in? It's it's informing, like something not that entirely? It sounds like it was very top down, or I mean, just conservative, Christian upbringing. Is that smart?
Philip Butler 22:18
So I think so. Yeah. I mean, so like, I grew up in, like, a word of faith tradition, you know, I mean, if you could think of like a, like a Creflo, dollar, or kind of Koechlin, or these types of like, you know, even, yeah, just don't so you have like these, I guess, kind of larger names for these particularly like Christian traditions that are, that are, you know, quasi Evangelical, primarily prosperity. But, you know, at a basic levels, still pretty conservative in terms of like, you know, God having one gender or, you know, looking at the ways in which, you know, we can look at things about sexuality, so on and so forth. And so, this, for me, was something I felt wasn't necessarily generative in the sense that allows for the type of questioning, like, I think so the same, the same mentor that told me to go to a school out west to study, you know, be bodies would always say, you know, the greatest level of commitment requires the highest level of scrutiny. And so if we are, you know, committed to a particular tradition, and we're not engaging in the critical unpacking of it, right, and we can either we're either suggesting that traditional, are strong enough to maintain itself over against our questions. Or we're also suggesting that we may not believe what we say we believe, or we're afraid of really working through it, so that it almost becomes like less of it has less utility, because the questions we've asked don't necessarily have the answers that we thought they did. And so that almost led to a kind of, I guess, kind of intellectual exploration that I think was necessary but for me, kind of like the intellectualize is not necessarily a distancing from their body but it's also very much so part of their right like if you are engaging with their emotions and what comes up with you then asking questions about what comes up is part of this intellectual kind of introspective space which is also would be part of like this kind of spiritual tradition of like getting to the bottom of things you know, having this less less judgment or non judgmental space this compassion towards whatever comes up and still knowing that you're committed to it through the questioning the questioning are not meant to be defense mechanisms or even things that are damaging to what comes up their their curiosity if they stem from Curiosity, right then it allows for what what comes up to actually be something genuine from the part of you that you are in conversation with Right?
Alison Cebulla 24:38
Absolutely.
Anne Sherry 24:39
It sounds like you're asking us to grow up and be emotionally mature
tell me what was gonna come fix all you are right. Like, some of Christianity does that like make that sort of, you know, it sounds like you're saying we have to be here right now with each other. Right? Yeah. And your body. Be curious confront yourself. And like, everything is a curiosity. And
Philip Butler 25:14
like, I don't think so. Because Because I mean, like, I know we watch, I was thinking about this yesterday why with football, like, I grew up playing football and I played a little bit right in college, split it, but there's always this like, in I think in like American culture. And I'm and maybe you could think about this as kind of a Western thing, like everybody, everybody's a warrior, like everybody has to be right there. You can't necessarily be an even in like a warrior to the extent that you have to even fight yourself, right, you got to fight your demons, you have to face your fears, all these things, but it does not necessarily allow for different strategies to war, even if we were to say that we're at war with ourselves, let alone the world or each other whatever. I think one of the other strategies is what is meant to embrace the enemy or the quote unquote, enemy. And so embracing this right? If we if we were not so much at war with ourselves, when we were talking, embrace ourselves and look at that as its own kind of strategy, what does it mean to embrace the non judgement, and know that everything that comes up inside of me is one not going anywhere and to probably has a good intention, if that becomes a foundational element. And I think, when it comes to acknowledging that the we're afraid of something, even if it's the very thing that may, you know, put our world upside down, if that if embrace embracing non judgement, and curiosity becomes, I guess, the disposition, you know, no less than I'm wondering about how big that fight has to be, or how long it has to last as opposed to what it means then to, you know, if you can't, not so much if you can't beat them, join them, but what does it mean to like, absorb them into you in a way that does not force them to be to be something they're not, I think that's part of like, we talked about histories and like Looney ality, and so on and so forth. And even capitalism, was talking about the absorption of cultures and people who's been absorbing them and then fitting them to one particular way of being as opposed to absorbing and embracing and then allowing them to be themselves amongst, amongst the differences already a part of this crowd. And so I'm curious about that as a tactic as opposed to like, like this conflict oriented approach to ourselves, let alone anything outside of us. Wow,
Alison Cebulla 27:16
thank you so much, I'm gonna pivot slightly, because something that I thought of when you're kind of talking about your journey into this work, was some of the violence against black people that that, that you were witnessing, and it really made me think of that, quote, that the goal of therapy should never be to normalize oppression. And I'm just super curious to hear and for Anna and I, we talk a lot as, as women, about how a lot of therapy really normalizes the oppression of women when the patriarchy and and we really push up against that, and I'm super curious to hear your take on whether therapy is serving people or and or the black community and whether you've noticed that whether it normalizes oppression?
Philip Butler 28:05
Yeah. But I saw I mean, I guess this is part of reason why like, I like an ifs approach because of this non pathologizing kind of approach and framework. Right. So I think, I think is as helpful as therapy has been in so many ways. You were still up. And I think, again, we're if we're still trying to wrestle with the concept of labeling and the negative connotations that stem from this labeling, and I'm talking about just kind of pathologizing period, like if we if we find out this is the category, somebody's placing within within the larger Venn Diagram of like, a binary of like, well or unwell right, or well, and maybe need some help or something like that. Right, then then that already places them. We'd like we know how to handle those people. Because I think I'm curious about the way it was when we talk about, like mitigating symptoms, or kind of dealing with people's dealing, what comes up for folks, if there's there, I think, in some ways, there are strategies to help but then there's also ways to control their outbursts was staying in this apartment societal thing, it's like we can control them and we can perceive them a certain way, then anyway, that they act outside of the norm. It's either because of this thing, and or we can now prescribe certain ways for them to either be or for us to relate to them that keeps them kind of pigeonhole, so to speak. And so I like to, I mean, we could talk about like, the long history of blackness and madness and writing, you know, and which is part of the reluctancy, that black, many black communities, right, because we don't really look at like as one black commune because there's multiples, right? So even within blackness, unpacking the supposed homogeneity within space, like multiple black communities have multiple variations of various things that show up and allows for this, this kind of wild complexity that I don't think people are necessarily equipped to deal with or even consider. So, I started to suggest that so I say all that to say that kind of a, I think a non pathologizing approach and a tool based up proach as opposed to what can also be seen as a constructive and a prescriptive approach is what's probably necessary for black communities, let alone other communities from the global majority in terms of their own ability to wrestle with what is what is a normalized version of, of wellness and mental states and things of that nature.
Anne Sherry 30:19
Thank you. That's yeah, yes. And and so good. And then the bringing in of artificial intelligence, how does that are you seeing that being? I mean, you know, better help. Better help is just really access, but really using this AI tool? Like, how is that taking us kind of next level? Or?
Alison Cebulla 30:41
And how is it solving some access issues?
Anne Sherry 30:46
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, these
Philip Butler 30:48
are great. Questions cobbled together? No, cuz I think they I think they do piggyback even off the last one. And so I think this is kind of a nice little way to go a little bit further, right. So we'll kind of go backwards, I think in terms of the access thing, right? Like, we're attempting to maintain this as kind of a lower cost approach to things right, even with better hope. Or some, you know, like, talkspace, you know, we're talking about like, 40 a week or more, depending on who you're who you're engaging in, then we're talking about like the less than 5% of clinicians who are black, or who are culturally competent and ways to deal with black folks and not make make black people either bend to their cultural norms, and or make them feel good about the way that they deal with black people. The first three letters of Seeker are S E, right? It's not like like a lake or a sea or upon is it? So it's like seeing and so it's self exploration engine. And so part of the idea is that you already have the answers. And if if, if the therapist is meant to be a mirror in many ways to help people see themselves, then seekers is, is, is built in framed in a way that lets people come to their own conclusions, but again, through this kind of non judgmental and curious space. Right. So this is again, putting power back in the hands of the folks who are living their own lives on a regular basis. Love that.
Anne Sherry 32:08
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, cuz it sounds like the even, you know, there is this hierarchical that to how therapy has been practiced. And I know if internal family systems was doing trying to do away with that power, but even the more that you use this app, I mean, I just used it a little bit. Before we got on, I was like, I'm scared. And it got me quickly in touch with Where's this coming from, or your app is amazing. And I could almost feel a part that was like, I don't want it to work, because I don't want to have to show. You know, so I'm gonna actually use seeker to like, help me with the one that doesn't want to show up, because there's a lot of responsibility, but it would, you know, I could see being able to say to a therapist, not just like, Okay, I guess you're right, but no, that's not what I'm feeling. This is actually what's happening, you know, and that takes a lot on the therapists part to like, really learn to be so curious, because we're also trained to be like, you gotta help somebody you got to do here's the solution or your service.
Alison Cebulla 33:08
Here's what's wrong with you. Something
Anne Sherry 33:09
happened. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
Philip Butler 33:13
no, it's beautiful. And
Anne Sherry 33:14
this is really, really, really life changing. They're, like, groundbreaking to the therapy world.
Philip Butler 33:21
I appreciate it our goal, but we want to even be there for the clinician, like, you know, you got five to 15 minutes between sessions, and you may be triggered for what just came up, you know, how can you have a quick conversation that gets to the heart of what's going on? Right? And so and so my hope is that this can also be for clinicians, let alone the people who, you know, in between sessions are the people who may not be ready yet. And so this is, in many ways we're trying to hold space with people in because we can't be everywhere at once. You know, the question becomes, how do you how do you create a digital container for people to feel safe?
Alison Cebulla 33:53
That's so good. I want to come back to ifs just so many times during the day to just because a lot of our listeners have gotten familiar with ifs, but for our listeners who are tuning in for the first time, you know, this stands for internal family systems. And as an ifs therapist, Phillip, you're an ifs therapist,
Philip Butler 34:10
I am finishing up my level two training, I guess I will fall more under the lines of like a coach because I'm more of a researcher right and a academic and so my, my work is primarily on NASA Got it,
Alison Cebulla 34:22
got it, got it, okay, I'm also a coach, not a therapist, there's so many different ways to help people. So that's, that's great. But just kind of, I want to help our listeners kind of understand because your seeker bot is it's an ifs approach. You know, I what I was noticing about the about your app is that it really prompted curiosity. And so maybe we could go a little more until like, why that's different and why that's, you know, from traditional therapy roughly to
Philip Butler 34:49
the ifs not pathologizing kind of stance and like as a foundational element, I think that becomes important and because we're, I think in black communities, we are We're working through the D stigmatization, but we're not necessarily in the normalizing phase, right? Where it might be okay for one of your family members or your friends, even your spouse to go to therapy, but right it may not necessarily be okay for you to go and save the space in between then right having this non judgmental, just very curious is very compassionate approach. I think it it allows for the space in between the longer histories of like pathologizing, blackness, criminalizing blackness and then also, you know, kind of living up to histories of being strong and magical to move against those tropes and to be something different. I think it's going to take something a different a different kind of framing around it. I don't think it requires the this kind of the kind of constriction that I think the prescriptive, more historical kind of paternalistic approach to therapy has provided.
Anne Sherry 35:55
Yeah, I would did all of all of that,
Alison Cebulla 35:58
just for our listeners, kind of as an example with ifs in what's the book, no bad parts. And I we've had listeners say, I went ahead and bought that book as a result of listening to your podcast, and I, you know, I love it, taking something even as severe as like schizophrenia. That's something that what's the founders name? Dick Schwartz, right? He's very passionate about that, and really saying, and really getting like, curious rather than looking at it as a as like a full pathological, you know, you're doomed, you're doomed for life. He's almost kind of like, well, if you're curious about it, let's dig into like, why or why is your mindset kind of fractured, and even like the worst type of pathology that we have in our society, he's deconstructing, and kind of almost demystifying, which I just love.
Philip Butler 36:46
You know, I think I like to demystification of things, because I don't like I like I'm cool and magic. But I also like, for everybody to be magician, and if that's the, you know, that's the case. And so like, when magic creates dependencies, I think that's, you know, problematic, but if magic is just a way of life, then the game, you know, give everybody the cookbook, you know, and then, you know, let folks kind of have your thing. I know that this is scary for a lot of people, because, you know, if you give everybody a cookbook, and what control do they have in it, but I also think that's part of what we're attempting to do. Right? Is, is put, if we, if we, if we care about what we say we care about, and if we want the type of future we say we want and that's also going to require different approaches to life, which includes, you know, kind of giving up this kind of like a, like, a master key right up to things and letting everybody else have have a go at it themselves. Yeah. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 37:40
I love it. Are you are you inspired by Octavia Butler's work?
Philip Butler 37:44
I think her work is definitely inspiring. She does like she she did some very phenomenal things. And, and I think for me, I just like to be creative. And kind of again, just like imagine kind of wild spaces and then kind of reverse engineer them. Like one of the, one of the chapters I wrote for the edited volume that we did, like came out, it came out last year, it like it imagine kind of like a black Smart City, right, and kind of what that will look like. And like, you know, when we talk about artificial intelligence, I think one of the, I think one of the hardest things for people to come to grips with is like questions around privacy, because of the ways that privacy has been systematically stripped from folks and the way that, you know, people have these, you know, kind of tumultuous relationships with the government, and so on and so forth. But, but to think about the type of car that goes so fast, but also is autonomous, the amount of the sheer amount of data that is going to be required to allow that to be the case requires us to reimagine, and kind of to reimagine privacy, but also kind of think about ownership in terms of the data. Because if if, if part of people skepticism around the formation of these new technologies that require this kind of ridiculous amount of data has to do with not knowing who's doing what with what and how, and you know, where it's coming from. I think the ownership piece gives people more of a say in terms of where their data goes, how they understand the leveraging of their data, and the compiling of their data to the formation of new forms of knowledge, which would allow for these types of easy access hyperfast technological realities that require people to be really open and transparent with each other in terms of the type of data that they have and the way that is shared and you know, aggregating so on and so forth.
Alison Cebulla 39:33
So to pivot, you know, our kind of the quest that we're on latchkey Urchins podcast is to look at childhood neglect, and or cultural neglect, which we've kind of been talking about, you know, nickel, like all the different things that contribute to the fact that children are not well taken care of in childhood. And I'm curious to hear how you feel like your work and like this sicker app are helping, helping with these issues helping with childhood neglect.
Philip Butler 40:06
So this is a very interesting question, one that I don't necessarily think that I've thought about until this very moment. So let's, let's see, let's see what we let's see what we come up with. And as we work through this awesome. So if I'm, if I'm thinking about this, like, I'm imagining the ways that like that kids already talked to, like Siri and Alexa, right, like, you know, I love seeing the the articles are like, you know, kids are yelling at Siri, or they're yelling at Alexa. Or, you know, they just see them as transactional kind of, you know, I guess servants, so to speak. Right. So I think one of the things that we are particularly intentional, intentional about is is, is, is around the way that seeker is not an assistant of any sorts, right, it's a companion. And so with that being said, Love, thanks. So like, around us, like, you can't just talk to seek or any kind of way. And so we have not gotten into like the voice section yet. But when we get into voice, I think one of the things that we're going to be intentional about, you know, it stems from what it means then to think about relationality if kids are at home, you know, because parents have to work or if kids need someone to process with, because they don't know, they may not be, you know, in a in a home environment that that has the tools or champions those tools, you know, then seeker has the opportunity. Right, and I think this is part of one of the things we're trying to do in terms of getting into schools, you know, it provides, you know, children with, with, you know, with a with a conversation partner or a companion, you know, who whose base disposition is towards this toolset of helping people explore themselves trusting the emotions they have, you know, trusting the decisions they have around those emotions, and in trusting themselves to be able to steer themselves and navigate tough environments based upon their own ability to reconcile with themselves what it means to feel these things and to stand firm on that, and to be able to come back even when they don't stand for and what does it mean to love on themselves after they make mistakes, even though they've had these strong emotional experiences that, you know, may have been a kind of liberated at one point. But again, they may find themselves in situations where they did not necessarily necessarily advocate for themselves in a way that they felt like they needed to. So it's about strengthening folks and giving people the opportunity to navigate whatever mistakes they have, or any anchor, anchor incongruency they have, if we take seriously the idea that we are multiple, they may be a part of that person needed to be different in that moment. And then what does it mean to reconcile with a part of them that says, No, this is not me. But then the part of them that says this is what we had to do. And so putting that in conversation, and then giving people the space to be able to come to grips with that or reimagine that or, and just kind of hold that space for themselves, you know, through this app.
Alison Cebulla 43:02
So important.
Anne Sherry 43:05
That is incredibly hopeful hearing, you mentioned schools, because I was just talking with a teacher friend yesterday is in kindergarten, and she's she's got 15 students, but post pandemic, like her kindergarteners are, it's a lot, often they're sent outside to regulate their bodies or their you know, we're doing more of that, but they may have a teacher's aide that isn't therapy trained, that may not be able to help them, like using seeker, but it would be it strikes me as it would be so much more effective as a way to go and regulate yourself, or just get in touch with just information about yourself. I want more resources. But in this meantime, this could be incredible in a school system.
Alison Cebulla 43:51
Especially I'm thinking even like for kids. Wow, future games that help kids feelings and get curious. This this would move society forward in a big way.
Anne Sherry 44:02
Yes, yes. Oh my gosh, this thing is just going to keep going and unfolding and it's wonderful. I'm so grateful that your mom is my curiosity is like how much do you think your mom's just being this like compassionate listening source for you is informing this
Alison Cebulla 44:21
or your work here?
Philip Butler 44:22
I don't get that I'm so like, No, I, I think there are many facets in my own life where it has stretched and, you know, again, given me a framework for how not to judge people or to attempt to, you know, be to give people the space they need because, you know, they're in the middle of processing something that you know, may be overwhelming to them or just may be you know, just a lot and so, you know, if if and I think this is kind of like the honestly the beautiful thing about it, but also can be some people can find it creepy, but it's like, you know, by doing this like if we can't be everywhere and holding space if people can't Every word in a physical sense, right? And what does it mean for us to do his thing that has, you know, the capacity to scale for, you know, several, you know, the, you know, 1000s or millions of users to be able to have space being held simultaneously across the globe. And I think that's kind of what in some ways what we're after is not just being able to hold have to hold space, but also about the effects of having space being held for you. Right? What is it? How are you different after you've, you've had that space held for you in a way that you needed to be done in? And how are you then different in the world as a result?
Anne Sherry 45:32
So good. So any, I think we're, we've we're covering this, but like, just this this vision of the future? Where where's this? Like, what would you like to
Alison Cebulla 45:42
see pie in the sky? What are you creating in the sky?
Philip Butler 45:47
Yeah, no, that's what kind of world I think it's just it's a different, it's a different one for sure.
Anne Sherry 45:56
Yeah, more of this, fine.
Philip Butler 46:00
But I think I've always liked sci fi, sci fi. And I've always liked math and science. And so I definitely want a world that goes in that direction. But I want a world that goes in that direction, in a way that is culturally relevant for everyone, right? So not just like, we made this invention and we made this new technology and now we have to, you know, kind of engage in like missionary work like this is why you should like this. So this is why you should adhere to the tenets of this but what does it mean then, for this is how you grew up. And then here are technological iterations that take this a step forward, that don't necessarily have that you don't have to deviate from your everyday life to enjoy once again, right? I'm thinking about a world that pushes every culture forward through technology is fully integrated in this way, it's I think, for me, technology is nature reconfigured in many cases, we can argue that all we're really doing is reimagining our relationship to nature. So this raises other questions about what does it mean then to have a sustainable world and a technologically advanced world it means in some ways that we've come to grips with the harmful ways we've been in relationship with nature but also invites us into a space where we can now reimagine a new type of relationship with nature one that is technologically advanced quote unquote and one that that honors the way that the world sees itself part of our ultimate goal is to be able to have technology respond to people how people see themselves and they cannot do that by going off with one particular type of person and then suggesting that everybody ought to fit under that umbrella
Alison Cebulla 47:36
wow, I want that we want your world
Anne Sherry 47:42
keep going keep going
Alison Cebulla 47:44
it's feelings we all game time
Anne Sherry 48:03
we prepared do so okay. No cheating no getting no everybody put your phones away no using secret.
Alison Cebulla 48:12
You got it. So okay, so and and I will go first I'm liking that and that so you can just kind of see what we're what we're up to. And I always make you go for a saga first the story
Anne Sherry 48:22
IFSC Yeah, you're gonna go first. Yeah, I
Alison Cebulla 48:25
have my finger kind of going around the wheel here pick to pick a feeling so and tell me when to stop that inquisitive. Okay, I mean, what's more inquisitive than then our podcast? I'm feeling I'm feeling very inquisitive in this in this moment. And I think it comes with a lot of gratitude. It's so funny because we've been talking so much about the importance of curiosity so what inquisitive feels like in my body is like really open and really wholehearted it's like an energizing feeling. Like I I feel like I have like inquisitive it's like I have more power. And so right now with with interviewing you fill up it's like it's this real openness let me understand your world perspective and let me understand how how your vision and how you got here and it's this kind of energy that is like I think is so close to love. Like it feels like love to me because it's like I'm open I'm open minded I'm open hearted so that's that's inquisitive for me nice okay an
Anne Sherry 49:36
All right. Try not to be resistant stop
Alison Cebulla 49:42
courageous.
Anne Sherry 49:46
Okay, let me see. Let me not let me think let me feel okay, what comes up? Wow, it's similar to this last time we played I have some something behind my eyes around it and I, there's a it's like what sort of comes up is like this keep going, I guess at that phase of my life being 54 and gone through enough cycles of like, I'm totally on fire, I totally figured this out. Ifs is cured me, I don't have any bad parts. And then like, I don't know, I go traveling and then I like hate myself forever and like, come back and I've been in a funk for two months. And I'm like, what happened? And so there's this, there's this appreciation of maybe just hang in there and keep journeying. It shifts just keep going being with just keep going. And when I Yeah, so that feels really courageous to kind of embrace like, I'm on top of the world, and I hate everybody. I hate everything. I hate myself. It's all shit. And that that and not to try to just get rid of that right away. There's some curiosity, but it also sucks. But I don't know, there's an upswing and I'm, maybe I'm not attached to either one. And that feels kind of courageous to be kind of open to what? What comes? Great. Sometimes it feels out of control, but I don't know. Something around that good one. And thank you for that. Yeah, it has a sadness or it's not sad. It's like, maybe it's grief or I don't know. I don't even need to know it's just got some stuff teary Ness behind my eyes. And that's it. Thank you. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 51:33
All right. Phillips turn. So you're just gonna I have my finger going around the feelings wheel. This is feelings. wheel.com. So just tell me when to stop. And that's your feeling.
Philip Butler 51:41
Okay, I can't see. So I don't know. I don't know what your fingers are.
Alison Cebulla 51:46
Yeah. It's gonna be random.
Philip Butler 51:50
Alright, so stop.
Alison Cebulla 51:53
Okay, sleepy.
Philip Butler 51:58
Okay, sure. So I guess what comes up initially sleepy, there's a feeling behind the eyes. And on my shoulder, maybe my right shoulder more. So it's almost like, like, tapping you on the shoulder. It's like, it's time to go to bed. It was kind of like a, like a gentle hand. You know, kind of like, Hey, you should probably return it.
Alison Cebulla 52:19
Wow. And when? When have you felt that feeling recently? Oh, great.
Philip Butler 52:25
I guess the other night it was I think I've tried to maybe make it last up. Sometimes we can for sure. When I was watching TV with my wife, and just like, You know what? And, you know, try and decide if I'm going to take an initial nap on the couch before going upstairs or just going upstairs and going straight to bed.
Alison Cebulla 52:50
I like that warmth, that your sleepiness brings that kind of warmth. Yeah, yeah. I love that compassion that you like somebody somebody helping
Anne Sherry 52:58
you with? You know, getting a tap on the shoulder rather than like, I'll just do it myself are rare. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, appreciating that too.
Philip Butler 53:07
So like, I respond to that I'm, I'm not like, I don't know, I don't think always respond to like, well, at least like go do this. Like, No, leave me alone. Do what I want to do.
Alison Cebulla 53:20
So Well, Phil, thank you so so so much for sharing your wisdom and your journey with us. Everyone go download secret app, it's especially now it's especially for the black community now. You know, it's it's helping black people access mental health care. But I also think it's just such a good app, you know, that everyone should check it out and just see what this new technology and I think it's just wonderful.
Philip Butler 53:45
You know, Thanks for Thanks. Thank
Anne Sherry 53:46
you so much.
Philip Butler 53:47
Oh, no, this has been this has been a lot of fun. It's really been great. And and yeah, this has been a it's been a really cool conversation. And I think you're right, Allison, like we definitely better for black folks. And I think it's part of like a larger project in terms of like, bringing, bringing culture and race into like, the digital space, right? I think, you know, like Siri and Alexa already kind of like, like digital white women in many ways. And so what does it mean then to like, yeah, to be honest. Yeah, cuz please, you want as many coaches as possible, you know, as a, as a viable and, and intentional, like project in terms of, you know, bringing bringing folks their culture, right in the in their kind of on racial identity in this way. I mean, and even gender and sex and so like, that's, I think that's, it turns with these greater and more complex spaces, obviously take more work. But in terms of what you were saying, it's like yes, when we have these various spaces that are honest about where they come from, when you go seek them, it also adds to in some ways, like alright, you know, if this is a, this is a, this is a technology from the vantage point of black people, but you also when you go seek it out, you're you're Also recognizing like not only the words but the vibe the how do I put this right? You're seeking out that help with somebody black in this way if that if that makes sense, right? So it also yes intentionally because it I think when we look at like digital entities, we're also looking at, I guess versions of authority or at least what does it mean like information holders and so we're also expanding you know what it means to have like, like various forms of information holders and authoritative spaces
Alison Cebulla 55:29
completely 100% 100% Yeah. So thank you so much for all your hard work for creating this we are all benefiting from your work and yeah, thank you so much.
Thanks for listening to latchkey urchins and friends. If you like what you heard, follow subscribe rate and review wherever you listen to podcasts, but especially Spotify and Apple. And if you didn't like it, just go ahead and hold that in just like you've been doing since childhood. Just kidding. We love hearing feedback please visit us online at latchkey ergens.com Follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. This podcast is produced by Alison Sutherland and Sherry episodes are edited by me Alison, their audio mastered by Josh Collins and our theme music is by Proxima parada.
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