29 - "I'm Fine" And Other Lies That Saved My Life—with guest Josh Collins, musician

Anne and Alison talk with Josh Collins, a California-raised guitarist and songwriter currently based in Idaho. Josh has been working behind the scenes on Latchkey Urchins & Friends as our audio engineer since Ep5. We learn about the chaotic home life he endured in childhood and how he found refuge in music. Josh plays with the band Próxima Parada, from whom we borrow their track "One Cloud is Lonely" as our podcast theme song. We play a song that Josh wrote and recorded with Próxima Parada called "Grateful," about his gratitude for his ability to cope and get through his stressful childhood. Josh adapted to be "the therapist" for his family and suffers some classic "middle child syndrome," as the 2nd of 3 brothers, always mediating conflicts and providing a listening ear.

Bio

Josh Collins

Guitarist | Composer | Producer | Educator
Works with Próxima Parada

Josh Collins is a guitarist and producer born in San Luis Obispo, CA. Josh has toured and performed alongside Charlie Shoemake(George Shearing Quintet), Social Distortion, Los Lonely Boys, Kenny Lee Lewis(Steve Miller Band), Galactic, Built To Spill, Aaron Lee Tasjan, Joe Hertler & The Rainbow Seekers and others. He currently performs and records with California-based soul band Próxima Parada. 

Follow Josh on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joshcollinsguitar/
Hire Josh to do the audio on your podcast: https://www.podcastaudiodoctor.com/
Check out Próxima Parada: https://www.proximaparadamusic.com/

Show Notes:

Interview:

• Middle Child Syndrome
• Interview with Nick Larson from Próxima Parada about healing trauma through music on "A Better Normal"
• Transforming Trauma podcast episode with Nick Larson
• Paying For It (song) - about growing up with an alcoholic dad
• Grateful (song) - song that our guest Josh Collins wrote

Science Corner:

• Health Outcomes from Positive Experiences (HOPE)

Transcript

Alison Cebulla 0:05
Welcome to latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.

Anne Sherry 0:10
And I'm an Cherie. We are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.

Alison Cebulla 0:19
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal.

Anne Sherry 0:28
latchkey kids are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set our toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do

Alison Cebulla 0:45
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our Spidey prickly parts keep people at a distance.

Anne Sherry 0:51
Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about.

Alison Cebulla 0:55
Sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.

Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the kids who were comforted by drugs and alcohol.

Alison Cebulla 1:04
Sometimes we were the adults who grew up not realizing what we didn't get

Anne Sherry 1:08
whether you're a latchkey, an urchin or a friend you are wanted

Alison Cebulla 1:13
here

All right, welcome to another episode. I don't think we have any business. I think what we're going to do is switch our weekly emails to monthly just because No, we none of us love email anymore. So just subscribe to the podcast on Spotify or apple so that you get that notification on your phone. But our emails are going to be monthly, which will include links to blogs or writing YouTube videos, extra content, as well as like, here's our episodes that we did this month. So that's on our website latchkey urchins.com Much better. More meaning and what are you reading?

Anne Sherry 1:58
Nothing. I wish there was a book title name nothing. No, I was just thinking about this morning. I'm like, I got up. I had extra time. And I've watched my struggle party will allude to this but I've fallen off the consuming meat consuming books and podcasts. I mean, I keep on

Alison Cebulla 2:22
doing with all your there is no time. That's it. Your parents, you're spending time with family.

Anne Sherry 2:29
Okay, spending time with family. Sure. But I did return. So I noticed that and that was very unsatisfying to not have something sort of like that I'm focusing on I think I went into sort of an add like I was doing too had too many fingers in the pots. Okay, so I was like, wait, wait, wait, go back to what you're really interested in is the neurodiversity stuff neuro divergent mind. So I returned to generika nurenberg divergent mind book this morning and picked up where I left off. Like it would be okay it would be really interesting if I could like see on Audible like all of my books are in a stage of you want to pick up where you left off and like you did I didn't finish the book they're all in some level of so I started way too many books anyways. The Nerd divergent mind is really interesting because I feel like I'm coming to an understanding that I ADHD I'm self diagnosing myself. Okay, and I have curiosity about that around and she's sort of she's talking about the sensory pieces autism how it's under diagnosed and women this is an area I'm seeing in my private practice several women that have been we have determined they fall somewhere in no divergent minds and it is having mind blowing impacts on getting working with OTs and other professionals where the therapy stuff occupational therapists know therapists yeah there's a lot there's it's the field is exploding and it's really helping people feel less overwhelmed and and less critical of why can I do this why can I finish this why can I stay at this party Why Why does a you know a grocery store freak me out? So it's

Alison Cebulla 4:30
not think that like if like everyone feels that way though to this like what I'm sure how designs what I'm so like, for example? Yes, yeah. dressing rooms. Why did they put fluorescent lights in these small ass grey dressing rooms with terrible carpet and like, why

Anne Sherry 4:49
do they not they don't want to sell clothes. I think like you're gonna get claustrophobia.

Alison Cebulla 4:53
You're gonna look terrible. This is sad. I work why do they do that? Well, maybe

Anne Sherry 4:59
I that they better pull it together because things like Stitch Fix, which I have used where you can get clothes sent to you. And then you try stuff on and you send it back what you don't want. So a lot of those things are coming available, so they better figure it out dressing room people.

Alison Cebulla 5:20
Grocery stores also terrible. Yes. I don't live in a town anymore where I can just get them, you know, hire someone to deliver them. Yeah. But when I lived in Boston, that was amazing. Yes, I don't want to go to the grocery

Anne Sherry 5:31
store. And I think the smaller grocery stores are taking off like Aldi and right Joe's where it's like, you don't spend as much time, right? I mean, like the large mega stores. I mean, I have driven, I've made half and half hardcore. And that's all I need. And half and half at the big grocery stores in the far back corner. Like no, I will drive another 10 minutes to a grocery store to get half and half where where it's like, a third of the distance. Yes, yes. First, there's

Alison Cebulla 6:07
this great, great clip. I wonder if I can try and find it and put in the shownotes where someone's asking Mariah Carey. It's like an interview from like, 20 years ago. Do you do your own grocery shopping? And the expression on her face is priceless. She wrinkles up her whole face and she's like, the grocery grocery store. And they're like, yeah, she's like, have you been in a grocery store? She's like, No, I don't go in there. Have you been in there? The lighting is not good for anyone.

Anne Sherry 6:35
That's hilarious. Yes. Like,

Alison Cebulla 6:38
if you get to be as famous as Mariah Carey, you don't have to do that bullshit anymore. Right? Like, you never have to walk into a bullshit grocery store ever again. And you're like, yes, but somebody

Anne Sherry 6:49
does for her. Right? Like somebody's gonna have to go into that shitty ass lighter. grocery or Well, I mean, famous SNESs to you'd be attacked. It would be a nightmare to not just the lady. Yeah. People attacking you. Yeah, have a piece of you. So anyways, that's me. Generic nurenberg divergent mind is what I've returned to as of this morning, but yeah, I went into the read 10 books at one time, and that doesn't work that well. Yeah, no. Yeah. What about you? What you read and listen to?

Alison Cebulla 7:25
Well, I'm watching last night we watched Taylor Tomlinson, like the 20 Something comedian. Her new show on Netflix is called look at you. And she's amazing. She's so funny. And she

Anne Sherry 7:37
saw that I think, Okay, I'm gonna look at I

Alison Cebulla 7:42
yeah, I actually tagged her in an Instagram story and said Taylor Tomlinson is a latchkey urchin, and she she didn't repost but she did like it. So I was like, okay, she doesn't disagree. And I just said she grew up with childhood emotional neglect and shoot, she, you know, double double tap that. But um, I repost her stuff on our Instagram because it's she all she does is joke about her own child trauma.

Anne Sherry 8:05
I watched that. I did watch that.

Alison Cebulla 8:09
Oh, you did? Did? Yes. Oh, okay. Her life crisis. Yeah, it's yes. I was quarterlife crisis was the one that came out a couple years ago. Yeah, yeah, it was her new okay. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 8:20
She Yeah, amazing. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 8:22
she's amazing. She's amazing. Um, so she talks very specifically about her mental health, mental illness and what she's been diagnosed with and what meds she's taking and it's so inspiring. I love it when people do that. So um, yeah, she has a great joke where she's like, Am I hot enough to come out publicly with my mental illness like are people gonna look up to me or is this gonna make people feel worse Oh my god.

Anne Sherry 8:50
Yes. We were laughing very hard.

Alison Cebulla 8:53
Yeah, just take a half a gummy Yeah, and it's

Anne Sherry 8:59
yourself Yes.

Alison Cebulla 9:00
Struggle party you're gonna go

Anne Sherry 9:09
to go. I was kinda I'll go yes.

Alison Cebulla 9:14
Okay, I'm like for me this week. I'm like, what isn't a struggle kind of get that one because it's

Anne Sherry 9:20
like this is I am coming to the end of like three three sort of major things going on that have taken it's multi multi phase and multi days and and so it was moving offices. I decided to move down the hall same building. Our is sort of like oh, what was you but Airbnb that we you know, we live in our 500 square foot garage intentionally live small so that we can rent out the rest of the house but that came vacant and it needed Like about three weeks worth of painting, and we'd had renters in there for two years because of the pandemic. And then I don't know something, another thing that's taken, where I've taken on more of the parenting duties, Thomas in some intensive training. And so I just felt like, I just had to do that. And I think you brought it to my attention, you're like, No, that actually is a sign of neglect or something, you know, just this overwhelm. Right? And it was really actually very helpful, because I'm like, oh, right, I probably could have had an impact on some of like, okay, this has to get done. I could have waited two weeks to move into this office. I didn't even ask I, you know, in my brain, it's like, no, you move on the first you have to move on the first. So I never even asked if I could say, you know, could I move in on the 15th, because I've got these other things going on. So that's just like how I do life in a lot of ways. Just like, I never think to like prioritize, or what's in my best interest or my family's best interest. Nice, and it is socked over these last three weeks, I stopped going to the why, because I just decide, I don't have time to yourself, Okay, now, I definitely did it to myself. And all my parts are pissed, culminating in something I'm going to try to write about. But like, where I had that one, this is what I was trying to say that one moment of where I was trying to register for us to join the summer pool. It's like getting concert tickets. And I couldn't do it. Just the way our membership was set up, it wouldn't let me click the button. And I fucking lost it. I was like back as an eight year old, just like needing help. So that was interesting. So and having a good, ugly cry about that helped me sort of put things into perspective, not that I'm on the tail end of it. So things are plugging back in. But it was not just this kind of felt like I was just like being dragged through life. And just like one more thing, I got to order one more thing, I gotta go get this I gotta move down the hall. And you know, Tom and I are not we're kind of fighting or everybody's like, tense in the household, but it just did not dawn on me. Think about shit take so this is okay, this piece little with this little piece. What do you do with this now that I know that that I have a tendency to do that. There's sort of like a pause that I have to take before I sign up for some big transition or something. I've got to actually ask, like, does that work? So that's a sort of a commitment I'm making internally to talk and

Alison Cebulla 12:52
see that your personality and I see this in other friends who are Enneagram seven Yeah, selling tune in any grand. Yeah. So I also do this exact thing where I was like, Hey, man, so like, if we're gonna do the podcast, maybe don't sign up for every ifs, yes, workshop aid. And you're like, on it, you're like on it. You're like, I took up I took them off my calendar. And then the next week, you're like, so I'm going skiing,

Anne Sherry 13:16
skiing I want but I want to do the things I want to do. You know, like we yeah, yes. So anyways, I just

Alison Cebulla 13:24
see how you just fell off and then you

Anne Sherry 13:29
I think of it like it's for me, it's like I make me making space is like, you know, at the beach, where you like dig out at the wet part, like up by the ocean. Like I dig a hole and it immediately feels back in is what it feels like. Back up the beach, where when I dig out sand it stays out so and I don't know, that may never fucking change. It may not I'm going to try my work on it. So, but I'm also just trying to have some put it into perspective and be like, Okay, keep trying keep working on it. Now you know about it, you can bring it to my attention, which I appreciate that. So that's my struggle party. I'm exhausted. I haven't gone to the why I'm going today to get back on my my schedule. That's been feeling great. So what about you? What What can you pick out?

Alison Cebulla 14:21
Because everything feels like a struggle. just existing. I'm like, again, I'm to the point where I'm like, I think maybe I should go on meds again thinking about getting back on meds. So which I am not embarrassed about I was on Wellbutrin for a number of years and I fucking love that drug so much. So could be can be time for some more. Yes. And, um, I mean, one sort of like physical health thing that I'm dealing with that is like, weirdly affects my mental health. Is that I took the 23andme test I found out I have the gene for celiac disease doesn't mean that I have it. But I kept I've been really struggling with face breakouts this year, even though I'm a 37 year old woman. And so I was like, why don't I just cut out the wheat and see if it helps. And it exactly made all my face breakouts go away. Really? So. Yeah. So I was like, Okay, I'm just not gonna eat wheat anymore. Well, guess what? It's all it's every food. Every good food. Yes. Like we have. We have a hamburger and I and I was just like, Oh, cool. Do hamburger night again. And then Kevin's like, Well, what about the bun? And I was like, I guess I just have it without a bun. So free bread are at that. I mean, gluten free bread is gnarly. And it's usually like full of sugar, which I also don't Yeah, so I did get some gluten free Toast. Toast plays like an avocado toast plays in town. And it was not that good. Yeah. So that's like, even like, oh, like beer is out. You know? You mean like, you don't drink but like, just regular life is like, what am I doing? So that's like weirdly stressful. Yeah, I'm like, What can I eat? Yes. So

Anne Sherry 16:12
kind of the nourishment piece. So when when life's overwhelming, and then then the NERT just like putting food in your?

Alison Cebulla 16:21
Oh, yeah. I love pizza toast. I know. I know.

Anne Sherry 16:25
I was thinking my younger brother got was diagnosed with celiac late. I get 4745 and it was rough. I mean, it like really was sad. To be

Alison Cebulla 16:37
it's yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm experiencing grief. Yeah. Oh, we grieve. Oh, come on. Well, Bucha Yeah, I need well, because we just gone yeah. You got

Anne Sherry 16:58
probably perfect reason to go back on meds for wheat greens. Yep. That should be in the DSM. Week grief.

Alison Cebulla 17:09
Okay, I have to share one more. Thing about Wellbutrin, though, because this was a while ago, six months ago. I was like, Oh, I still have all my Wellbutrin ins from when I was on them a few years ago. And I was like, why don't I just take one and see what happens. And when I had started the meds back in 2016. And I kept going into the psychiatrists office every day. And they're like, how do you feel we want to make sure you're not having like any side effects or whatever. And I was like, I don't feel anything like, you know, because you don't feel the positive effects for about, you know, four to six weeks. Yeah. You know, when he's when you take them as like, I don't really feel anything. But I took one six months ago just to see and I was like, cracked out of my mind. So I was like, how depressed was I in 2016? Where I took a giant upper Yes. And didn't feel one thing.

Anne Sherry 18:06
Yep. Yes. So

Alison Cebulla 18:09
that's been a little bit of an insight for me of like, wow, I think I was really depressed. So like,

Anne Sherry 18:15
six years ago. Oh, so you are early? 30s. Right.

Alison Cebulla 18:20
I was Yeah, I was 31 at the time. Yeah. Yeah. That was my big. That was my year where I had the giant meltdown psychiatric hospital meds therapy. And yeah, you know, finally woke up. Yes to everything. Oh, that's like just the exact right time to do it. Yes. Agreed. Yeah, there's just something about entering your 30s where you have to actually reject your family for the first time. Yes. Very, very important.

Anne Sherry 18:49
I don't think you can do it before then. Or it's hard.

Alison Cebulla 18:52
I don't think I was able to like financially like as a millennial, I graduated college in 2009. There were no jobs of any kind available. There wouldn't be for years, I applied for hundreds. And there were always like 1000 applicants and they're like, we don't even look at your you know, I remember getting offered so many free internships. Well, do you want to come work for us for free? I was like, I come from that kind of family. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I just had to like, you have to make peace with your family if you don't have any economic means. Yeah. You know, like so. You know, I lived with my parents like almost my so many years of my 20s Not all of them. I lived at lots of different places, but it's like, Jobs did not my first job my first like real job which I finally got like three years after graduating didn't come with health insurance or benefits, and it paid $16 an hour.

Anne Sherry 19:47
Right. Well, Danielle posted something the on Facebook, I mean that over 50% of a certain age group is living with their parents right now like this. So yeah working it's just continuing to work it's not like it's like it didn't work for millennials and then it like it's it didn't turn. I don't

Alison Cebulla 20:08
know we have we have the Mariah Carey's with, you know, and the Kardashians with all the money and then we go to this, say going to the grocery store. Carrie

Anne Sherry 20:22
I'm working on a little piece of like trying to rewrite some of the DSM diagnoses to apply like the hoarder diagnosis to apply to like Jeff Bezos type. So I'm trying to do a little satire piece on that. We'll see where that goes. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 20:39
but okay, but because you said for Marie Curie, I just have to she's the greatest of all time. Yeah, she's my favorite. Oh,

Anne Sherry 20:45
yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Alison Cebulla 20:48
Okay, I agree. Speaking of family trauma, like I almost want to do a whole episode on Mariah Carey. I want to do a whole episode on younger young women who marry their creepy creepy, gross, terrifying older producers, Mariah Carey, Celine Dion. Shania Twain. I don't know that Shanaya Twain and Celine Dion? Well, okay. Celine Dion's guy was way older than her Renee or whatever, producer. Yeah. But like that Tony Matala that Mariah Carey, like, that's so gross. She calls herself in her book, a child bride. Like he was so much older and so gross. And this is like a phenomenon that happens where they pick these traumatized young women and groom them to be a star, which I guess is to their benefit, but they often have to like, be in these compromised sexual position. Yes. Which I hate for them. Yes. It's a whole thing. It is

Anne Sherry 21:55
improving after Harvey after me too. And in some of I mean, that's being highlighted, is that exists. It's not like so much under the radar. I don't think I'm sure it still happens. But

Alison Cebulla 22:12
so Josh Collins is a musician. He's an amazing kind of virtuoso guitarist. He has a Patreon that we'll link to in the show notes, where if you are part of his Patreon, you get these guitar performances online. And he creates music. He's the guitarist in our theme music by approximate product. And he's just he's our sound guy. He's just an amazing musician. And he does our he's he does our audio kind of mastering for episodes, checks the volumes makes them sound good. So we're super grateful. And historias. Gnar is the other way to say,

Anne Sherry 22:52
it really is I had, I did not know what to expect at all. I knew what a wonderful person he was. And but just the more that we delved in and talked, I was like, we, you, we gotta get you to some long term therapy like and what is resilience is there and his curiosity. He's a survivor for sure. Like he's doing really great stuff with his life and he's ready to do the work. I used to look back on myself in my 20s. And I was like, You were you had some of the best types of therapy and therapists what was wrong with you like, and I made shitty decisions in my 20s? You know, I just the just bad decision after bad decision that wasn't like,

Alison Cebulla 23:37
there's no other way to do it. Yes,

Anne Sherry 23:39
I know. It's another way. It's just inevitable.

Alison Cebulla 23:43
Our intention and hope with the interview with Josh is that no matter what stage our listeners are at with our with your healing journey, that you will get a little bit of inspiration from people sharing their Yes. So here's our interview with Josh, and joy.

All right, welcome. We're super excited to be here today with Josh Collins. And Josh is a super special guest because he does all of our audio stuff for our podcast. So we send them our audio files, and he makes them sound good. And sometimes put some up for us on get some published. So it's so fun to introduce you all to someone who's so instrumental to our podcast behind the scenes. So this is Josh, Josh, welcome.

Josh Collins 24:53
Thank you so much.

Anne Sherry 24:54
And Josh has listened to every one of our episodes. Right The biggest fan to

Alison Cebulla 25:04
moralize we hate he asked you we Pam

Josh Collins 25:11
I usually go back and re listen because while I'm doing the work I kind of hard for me to hear words. Yeah. Yeah, listen for EQ and different things, but oh,

Alison Cebulla 25:23
so Josh also is the guitarist on our theme music. So our theme music is from Proxima prata, which I got access to because my boyfriend is the bass player in this band, and Josh is a guitar player. So that's how I know Josh, when we were starting out our podcast, Kevin was like, you should get Josh to help you with this. And so that's how we that's how we got connected with Josh. And I think early on, Josh, you had some really, really good insights and commentary about this topic that made me just be like we're you have to come on as a guest. So we're so stoked. And so first things first, were you a latchkey kid? Were you an urchin? Are you a friend?

Josh Collins 26:09
Yes, I was a latchkey kid, and I think arguably an Archon Yeah, also, I tried to be friendly. Yeah, there's all three there. Yeah, we were for as long as I can remember. We'd you know latchkey. From from when we were me, and I have two brothers. And from when we were really little, we would go home and be alone for hours. Both my parents are teachers.

Anne Sherry 26:34
Yeah, wait, and you were born in 94? Right. You said I can share that. Right. So latchkey like, lasting through the 90s did it last through the 90s? Obviously, if Josh's but there was sort of there somewhere along the line. It was like no, you must be home with your kid or they have to have a babysitter or but it sounds like you came home alone.

Josh Collins 27:01
Yeah, looking back. I don't think most of the kids I went to school with where? But at the time, it never occurred to me.

Alison Cebulla 27:10
Hmm. Okay. Yeah, you were kind of sharing like before, like, of like your Jenkins after school, which we episode 11 I think or whatever with Tyler, where we talked about Jenkins Middle School, which used to be called superior to Jenkins. Yeah, it used to be called the pink prison. Because it was bright, a painted bright pink, I guess before, way before our time. But um, middle school to me is so traumatic. And anyway, I think it's like hormones are starting to come on or whatever. And, and so but you were saying kind of like your typical day, do you? Would you mind sharing, like what you know, after school? Yeah, often

Josh Collins 27:53
after school. You know, I could take the bus home and be home alone. Or I could just kind of walk straight down the hill from from our schools on the top of a hill overlooking the ocean. And we could walk straight down and within a few minutes, I could be down town, Pismo Beach and at the pier, and I would just hang out there for hours. I would just sit on a bench and people watch. I would like scrounge around for quarters to go buy some french fries. I would

Unknown Speaker 28:30
get into action part.

Josh Collins 28:32
Yes, I'd walk down the beach or down the road, like all the way to like town. The next because of five cities are all close together. So you can walk from town to town pretty easily. And I ended up like two, three hours away from my house just at some random bonfire or no, you will not. Oh, for sure.

Anne Sherry 28:50
I even have the age ranges on this is this middle school? I was

Josh Collins 28:53
in middle school I was in okay. Okay, yeah, like 12. So yeah, so, and this is just that's what you know. And so I eventually I'd walk home but I had friends in Grover beach. So sometimes I just walk to their place, which

Alison Cebulla 29:08
takes forever. Yeah, it took forever. The only time I did it was I was on LSD. And that was just like the energy that just propelled me forward. i i Our middle schoolers have a lot of energy. I don't know.

Josh Collins 29:20
Yeah, a lot of that fuels. Yes.

Anne Sherry 29:24
Yeah, walk in that off. Yeah, I got a tank full of angst. I can get all the way three hours down the beach.

Alison Cebulla 29:31
So what were your Yeah, exactly. What were your lack of key snacks?

Josh Collins 29:36
Yeah, I remember sharing with you that I would combine Teddy Grahams and refried beans.

Alison Cebulla 29:41
I hate that so much. It's my worst one anyone's ever shared with me,

Anne Sherry 29:46
John. I'm sorry. Please describe that. Brunch and then the beans and what please

Josh Collins 29:55
where it was just carbs just okay. Yeah, A microwave popcorn and all that kind of stuff too. But yeah, I'd, I would take an entire can of refried beans and I would pop it open, pour it into a bowl, microwave it until it exploded. I

Anne Sherry 30:13
said microwaves Yeah,

Josh Collins 30:15
yeah. And then I would take Teddy grants and Teddy grants I had a special relationship with because that's how I learned how to catch food in my mouth after throwing it in there. I had took a lot of pride in this skill. I worked on

Anne Sherry 30:29
googling study grams. Sure I remember you

Alison Cebulla 30:32
really this was such a staple. Oh, yeah. Was it chocolate? Cinnamon, which one was your favorite?

Josh Collins 30:39
We get the variety pack variety.

Alison Cebulla 30:42
Were you a Costco family? Costco family?

Josh Collins 30:45
Yeah, at some point we were Oh yeah, we didn't. Maybe starting in middle school, perhaps. Because my mom worked in San Luis Obispo. So there's the one there and she'd go there after school sometimes.

Alison Cebulla 30:56
So after wandering around, then what would happen? Like eventually you'd make your way home?

Josh Collins 31:01
Yeah, eventually I'd make my way home. Sometimes it would be you know, the sun would be going down. Other times it would be well past dark. And

Alison Cebulla 31:08
but like Did Did someone mind or what?

Anne Sherry 31:14
We were talking 2000 to three at this point? No. 2000 What year is it? You were born in? 1994? So yeah, so so bad at math? 2006 2006.

Josh Collins 31:28
Yeah, and, yeah, I mean, that was one of the things that I it was a weird pride for me, but also kind of a hit to me as well, that there was there wasn't anybody waiting out there wasn't anybody going? Where were you all that time? You know, there were a couple of times, though, where, you know, my mom would get really concerned and, and one time where she even called the police. Oh, okay. Okay, but, but by and large, this happened all the time. And it was just, it would just be these random times, I never would know that she'd be really concerned.

Alison Cebulla 32:01
Ah, what do you think was happening those times? Do you? Do you have any insight? Or have you thought about it? You're still not sure?

Josh Collins 32:07
No, I Well, maybe there was only one time that she really got that concerned. And I remember that time was was special because I she had this boyfriend at the time she was with for eight years. And he was very abusive. And we had had this argument as soon as I got home from school, because he wasn't working. So I would get home. And at the time, you know, he had he would work on and off. But so at the time, this particular moment in time, he was at home all the time. And I would just try to blend in, I would just try to not be seen because he had quite a temper. And this day, he was in one of those moods and just he yelled to me over something and I just couldn't handle it. And and I just stormed out. And I actually was one of the stories when I was preparing for this as one of the stories I wrote down. And so yeah, anyway, that was one of the times when

Anne Sherry 33:04
police wonder you didn't want to come home though.

Josh Collins 33:06
Right? Yeah. As to

Alison Cebulla 33:09
why you're wandering around. Good point. And where were your

Anne Sherry 33:12
siblings? Your two brothers, right?

Josh Collins 33:15
Uh huh. Yeah. And my little brother was still in elementary school. So that was he was going on the bus home from there and I got home a lot earlier than he did. And then my older brother was in high school. So he was driving to and from school with my mom.

Anne Sherry 33:32
Okay. All right. So your parents, your parents were high school teachers? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Yeah, cuz I can't really remember. I had my older brother. And he, it's, none of my stories have him in it really, as far as like, it was my younger brother where I was. I don't know, like, felt like I had to care for him. And I think you and I sort of bonded on that at some point. Being that middle child. I don't know when.

Alison Cebulla 34:01
What is the what does it mean to be a middle child? Emotionally?

Anne Sherry 34:10
Yeah, it doesn't have to be squashed. Like squoze out right for me. Certainly. But just forget it. There's no time for that.

Josh Collins 34:20
I was much more of a therapist to my parents than I was to my brothers. I think that more for them it was more lead by example. Like be, be strong be hold it all together and never need things never need. Okay, I Googled to be seen.

Alison Cebulla 34:36
I googled what to know about middle child syndrome. And this all checks out you guys. They're good at being mediators and want fairness and situations. There are trustworthy friends and team members and they may have a stronger or they may have a stronger sense of not belonging than their siblings do. Oh, why

Anne Sherry 34:58
100%

Alison Cebulla 35:00
Why

Anne Sherry 35:01
are you gonna belong to it's you got to fix that thing. I think we're seething anger underneath that nobody. The people that are supposed to have it together aren't having it together. And then so you're like, Well, I guess I'll do it. And it's fucking infuriating, deep down under there. Why would I want to belong to that? But somehow I don't know how we get handed that? I don't know. I literally don't know why here is like took that on.

Alison Cebulla 35:26
Yeah, but yeah, there's a lot here about being mediators having to have like an easygoing, adaptation to your personality to make sure that everyone's okay, that's something you could speak to right, Josh?

Josh Collins 35:41
Yeah, absolutely. I remember I remember thinking about this consciously, that, you know, I was the guy who's never gonna get upset, never gonna boil over. Ever. And

Alison Cebulla 35:52
when were you having thoughts? So what I,

Josh Collins 35:54
what are you? Oh, as long as I can remember, really, from the time I think I remember the first time as a seven maybe.

Alison Cebulla 36:03
And you were like, I gotta keep it together for my family fan?

Josh Collins 36:07
Absolutely. 100%. Because it was, you know, it was chairs were being thrown across the house. I mean, it was very chaotic. There was a lot of stuff going on. And, and we were kind of just the three of us just left to be like, what is happening? You know, and I remember just thinking, anything that happened, I would ask myself is, am I gonna be upset about this in five minutes? Am I going to be sad about this in five days or five years, and that was how I got through, it was like, I'm just going to be so even, you know, because of one of the things I wrote about was these car rides that we would have, okay, so every three weekends of every month, we'd all pile into my mom's car and we drive down to a gas station in Santa Maria, which was the halfway point between our house in the five cities and my dad's house in Lompoc. Got it. And that's where we would you know, only the ride back to his house. It would always go the same way. He would stick in his Nickelback CD or his creed CD or his evidence and your brother. And go back. My dad.

Alison Cebulla 37:08
Oh, your dad. Okay. You're in the car with your dad. Okay, I thought you're in my head. You're on your way to car to death. Okay, in your car with your dad? No. So we've switched over dad's Nickelback way to go. Okay. Okay.

Josh Collins 37:21
cranked and he's he's venting about just all of the intimate details of his divorce with my mom. Oh, no. No, about this.

Anne Sherry 37:30
Boundaries.

Alison Cebulla 37:33
Okay, yeah,

Josh Collins 37:34
one thing you should know about this divorce is that they were they were divorced for from 2000 to 2012 or so. And what I mean by that is not that they, that's the years of their separation, and that they got back together at the end. I mean, to say that the procedure of divorcing 12 years they are divorcing or they were Yeah. Wow. for that long.

Alison Cebulla 38:03
years, just

Josh Collins 38:04
Oh, yeah. The whole retirement. There's like, just so

Anne Sherry 38:11
teachers, they've got some California Teacher pension shit going on. Right. But you wouldn't know

Josh Collins 38:17
it. But yeah, they had a lot to argue about and nothing to, to agree on. And so my dad would he'd sprinkle in these strange lies about my mom used to be all these things that we had no idea who she was after, after all this time. But my brother, you know, he just couldn't handle it. My older brother he would, he'd have his earbuds in a lot of the time kind of blasting some other kind of music. And my little brother was really young at the time. So I felt like, someone's got to listen to this guy. He's poured his heart out right now. So that was me. I was the guy. I'm gonna be here for I'm going to

Anne Sherry 38:52
take one for the team. Yeah. Yeah. And

Josh Collins 38:55
both my brothers. They sorry, they definitely had that. Like, oh, we need help through this. We need help to get through this.

Alison Cebulla 39:06
And you were there. I

Josh Collins 39:06
was always like, No, I can't. I thought that there was a type of person that needed help. And I wasn't going to be that kind of person. Oh, that's fascinating. Got

Alison Cebulla 39:17
a hit for you. Oh,

Anne Sherry 39:21
are you kidding me? Yeah, yes. 100%.

Alison Cebulla 39:26
Yeah, that sounds pretty, pretty childhood emotional neglect across the board,

Josh Collins 39:30
just in our family is really important that the three of us were sympathetic to what our parents were going through. And that, you know, we understood that we're not going through anything as bad as they are. So we need to be there for them. And you know, if my brothers were we I would ask for help for anything for especially for my dad. You know, I just remember this classic response was always like, you're not really gonna make me get up right now. Are you? Wow, you know, and it was that was like the thing it was like Okay, so if I am good myself. If I'm self reliant, then I'm good. Right? That's that's what he really

Alison Cebulla 40:05
safe. Yeah. Which means that was something that your dad used to say. Oh, yeah, yeah. So like,

Josh Collins 40:13
yeah, exactly. So that was his response to any any, you know, any random thing like, food. Any, like, if we're doing something like needing help with a task, anything was like, I can't believe you would even ask me that question right now.

Alison Cebulla 40:30
Okay, may or may not be able to. So that's where I was coming

Josh Collins 40:33
from being the fixer person. I'm like, Okay, well, I see clearly how to be good here. Yeah, like, get good grades. Never need anything, figure things out on my own. Don't trouble my parents, because they're just my quote

Alison Cebulla 40:47
my question. This is probably more for your parents, but it's just, I just can't help it. Like just where my brain goes, like, what is it that your dad thought that parenting was supposed to be about?

Josh Collins 41:00
You know, I asked myself the same thing. I what I what I've come to with it is that they were both trying to fill kind of a hole in their life by having kids maybe trying to save their marriage. Okay. And yeah, it was like, and it was very clear to me growing up that, you know, if you have three sons, you have three taskmasters you have three lifters, you have three movers. Like they're they're there to do your tasks for you. Why are you lifting a finger when you have three sons that are able bodied? And it was kind of like it felt like his experience of being a dad was more important than putting in that work.

Anne Sherry 41:44
Oh, that's it. That's

Alison Cebulla 41:45
Yes. That gives me chills. I'm

Anne Sherry 41:47
sure. Yeah. Apart. That was Yeah. Where's Where are your parents now? Like, what's your relationship with them now?

Alison Cebulla 41:55
Yeah, I know. I'm dying to hear. Yeah. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 42:01
yeah. Yeah. That and how do you see your current? Yeah, how you operate as an adult in the world? The the lasting impacts of that. Cool.

Alison Cebulla 42:13
All at once.

Anne Sherry 42:14
part question. Yeah.

Josh Collins 42:17
Part one. Where am I was? Yeah. Still teaches she's gonna retire in a year. So she has one more full school year to do. We talk we do holidays.

Alison Cebulla 42:33
And I've met Tasha.

Josh Collins 42:37
You've met her? Yeah. So my dad lives in Phoenix. And we don't talk. My brothers do talk to him. But I don't. And he reaches out to me. Often, it's not it's not something that he's comfortable with that we don't talk. So I guess that's still kind of a TO BE CONTINUED type thing.

Anne Sherry 43:02
Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 43:03
Was that a conscious choice? Yeah,

Josh Collins 43:07
absolutely. Yeah, it was big. It was a big choice that I've made many times over the years. It just seems like every time I try to let him in, it's like, he wants something. You know. He's in and out of drug abuse all I mean, that's a large reason why my my parents split up is just a lot they they got together as drug addicts. They lived as drug addicts. They, my mom didn't want to be a drug addict. And he said, Well, you never said I'd have to give this up. If we had kids. You never said that. So that was his choice. It was his choice to take that path to say this is more important to me. And over the years of my brothers haven't relationship with him. He's borrowed tons of money never paid back. He's always just asked them for favors and he's just he's not interested in what's going on in our lives so much that he wants to know someone's there to take care of him when he's old.

Alison Cebulla 44:05
Oh, yeah, yeah. Or

Anne Sherry 44:06
sort of his utilitarian I'm just constantly Yeah,

Josh Collins 44:10
yeah, it's like he he's just a monologue every conversation is just a monologue about him talking about all the problems that he's had and how none of it is his fault how his whole life has gone to shit around him and he has no idea what happened

Alison Cebulla 44:24
and he's covered a lot of trauma

Anne Sherry 44:26
a lot of partition i I support you in the book that we go on and on about Stephanie foods book she does have that section in there about a strange met and it doesn't feel great but it's something

Alison Cebulla 44:38
my bones knows Josh Have you heard it yet?

Anne Sherry 44:41
What my bones now? No, I

Alison Cebulla 44:45
I made Kevin listen to a little bit to the top. Just whatever you're doing or reading or whatever projects you think you have just dropped literally 100% of them and listen to this book. Yeah, what my bones No, every friends We'll do that who has taken cover on every everything is like this is the best damn thing I've ever read. It's gonna hit though. Yeah, I mean, just have some Kleenex. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 45:12
Yeah. But in many ways, I think you know what I what I said it before but it for my for me it gave me permission to see how neglect trauma like it's in everything. It's in everything. And that wasn't it was overwhelming a little bit to think about but it also brought in a wave of compassion.

Josh Collins 45:35
Yeah. A little bit like our relationship was just more about what he was entitled to. But you're seeing it accurately. Yeah, he feels very entitled to my love and admiration, affection and attendance and support all that stuff. He thinks that I've kind of lost my mind. He thinks that I so just blinded.

Alison Cebulla 45:57
Yeah, we were kind of chatting like about like, some traits that you noticed in your family that are maybe some traits that our listeners would relate to have a dysfunctional family. Right. A family that's not functioning super great. And you had some thoughts on what some of those traits were. First off being? Not a lot of happiness. Hmm.

Josh Collins 46:23
Oh, yeah. Just what it was like, day to day in our

Alison Cebulla 46:26
Yeah, what? What were Yeah, yeah.

Josh Collins 46:31
Yeah, we were definitely left to our own devices. But I think that every time I wrote down a story, this just the feeling would come back to me of like, just this general unrest in the house, just this feeling like, nothing was okay. Like, you weren't safe. You weren't. It was just everybody was unhappy. Everybody was having a bad time. And that was just to be assumed. It's not like, Oh, you seem like you're upset. What's going on? Like, everyone was upset all the time. So it's like, don't try to come to me with your problem. I have my own problems. Like, you know, yeah, everyday over there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then, so we would go to my dad's house, or they're part of that story, we would, he would talk about all these things about the divorce, all the things that are going on. And the thread through all of it was I can't believe you know, you've been taken from me, and I can't believe I don't see you as much as I want to. So then we'd get to the house. And my dad would say good night, and he would go to his room, where he would eat junk food and watch the History Channel. And he would be in bed the entire weekend that we were there. And we would sit there and we had this rotation, we'd all play video games. So but we all liked one player games, it's three of us, we take these two hour turns day and night through the night like these. So we'd get sleep when it wasn't our turn to play the video game.

Anne Sherry 48:01
Like on the watch on a like a boat.

Josh Collins 48:05
Like thinking back to. So then my off time from playing video games, my my brothers were busy doing video games or whatever they were doing. And so that's when I really kind of learned to play the guitar. And I found my love of reading. And my dad didn't want us walking around the neighborhood because he doesn't trust long poke. Just arguably fair. So at least his parents living in so yeah, so he's like,

Alison Cebulla 48:39
let's give them let's give them a point for that.

Josh Collins 48:42
Yeah, yeah. So that was very different with my mom's household in my dad's house. My dad was quite protective. Yeah, no, that was different about our thing. But yeah, and then what come time on Sunday, we would just like pack up, get back in his truck. And we'd have the same conversation on the way back the same monologue. And that was, what, three weekends a month were for years.

Anne Sherry 49:08
Wow. Childhood lasts forever. It is.

Alison Cebulla 49:13
Literally, there's no time it doesn't exist and you just carry your childhood with you. So that's part two of our original question from a while back is like, how do you think your childhood has been carried with you? How do you see it show up? How is it not? A better? Very we love that response. Yeah.

Josh Collins 49:40
I've been so one of the things that has been occurring to me lately that I've been doing journaling about is that I think I never truly let people in. I never truly like I'm not and you know, Allison because i Your boyfriend's one of my closest confidence that I'm not afraid to call people and talk to them when I'm going through salutely. But also, I have this disconnect from every living thing around me where like if they were to just disappear or die, I don't know that I would feel anything that's familiar. I don't know that I would be affected at all. And it's really weird. And I think about it, I journal about it and my, my cat recently died. And just nothing, nothing. Yeah, well, shit. And it's hard to even come talk about that because I, because, you know, my wife's really upset and like, it took a toll on her and it was just like, I can't commiserate like, I don't, I loved my cat. It was my, we had a close bond, we would snuggle all the time she was I was her favorite person, by far she really liked talk to me. And still, it was just like, that's just part of life. You know, I, I, I have, I have this thing deep in me where like, it's, it's me. It's always just been me. And it always will just be me, I'll have relationships, I'll have things with other people, animals and things like that. But at the end of the day, like I'm just a survivalist thinking about me. You know,

Anne Sherry 51:15
you are describing your childhood, though. It was only you.

Alison Cebulla 51:20
I mean, no one was coming.

Anne Sherry 51:24
It was coming. Yeah, I mean, that is the essence of this emotional neglect that we're speaking of, and it takes a long time to unwind.

Unknown Speaker 51:36
Well, I know that you will need to say everything's okay, now.

Alison Cebulla 51:42
Okay, for this week's science corner, I want to bring your attention to something called the hope framework. And hope stands for healthy outcomes from positive experiences. And it's the antidote to aces. And it's research being done at Tufts University in Massachusetts by Bob sagay. and his team of researchers. And the guiding principles of the hope framework are that positive, and negative factors that impact child health exist in all domains of the social ecology. And so there's an interplay among individual relational community and societal factors that must be addressed in order to achieve optimum child health outcomes. child and parent health and well being are linked inextricably. So positive experiences must promote child health, parent health and a healthy parent child relationship. And that child health incorporates physical, cognitive, social and emotional outcomes. So it's really a framework to help address aces that takes into account the Total Wellness ecology in which a child is born. And positive childhood experiences include being in nurturing supportive relationships, living, developing, playing and learning and safe, stable, protective and equitable environments, having opportunities for constructive social engagement and to develop a sense of connectedness, and learning social and emotional competencies. So throughout this interview, I just kept thinking, although we didn't end up asking Josh about all of his positive childhood experiences, that combat added some of the stress from his home environment, and I think that he had a lot, I think, you know, they can include things like did you have a you know, a mentor people who believed in you and and so these are all things that are really important, you know, community connections for helping out if if you experienced a lot, so check out this responding to aces with hope, health outcomes from positive experiences, and we'll link to that in the show notes. It's a great framework so that we don't we don't just focus on the bad stuff all the time.

Unknown Speaker 54:05
When it rains it

Alison Cebulla 54:15
you have great insights on on your journey, like you experienced a lot, but I always feel like you. You kind of see those threads. So I guess like when it comes to like your cat or not being able to experience that grief. What are the threads you see from your childhood to this moment?

Josh Collins 54:40
Hmm, I always have been extremely independent. I think there was like this moment, this transition in my childhood. When I was in middle school, I was going into eighth grade, when my focus turned from getting really good grades and being kind of the fixer, the hero of the family and more turned to like what am I getting out of this and my grades slipped, and I got really into music. And I got really into busking late at night at the pier and just, and just being on my own. And, you know, from that moment on, it just got more and more that way, we are always very independent. Like, my mom treated us all like adults. Especially once I got into high school. I, we had no rules, there's no rules, there was, you know, drugs floating around everywhere. I mean, I would do drugs with my parents. When I was starting in middle school, starting seventh grade. And it was almost like they did it as like an apology for the way we were treated. It was felt like this, like, hey, we had a hard day like, come, come do drugs with us. And so we would do that. And I just became very independent. Like if my mom even had a rule that she wanted to start us to start following it this huge offense to me like who are you to give me rules? Like I'm going to die? Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 55:59
That happened to yep, yep. Yep. Yeah.

Josh Collins 56:02
Yeah. So then I ended up moving out one relationship, there's

Anne Sherry 56:04
no yes factor. So

Alison Cebulla 56:06
there's no trust, I was

Josh Collins 56:07
like 15 and a half 16. When I moved out, I was just so ready to be done. And I didn't really care at that point, what happened to all of them? I was just like, Well, I'm just going, I'm going, I'm going to be good. And I'm going to do great. And I'm not going to let this tear me down. So I think that is really carried through just this feeling like, it's me. If you can't keep up, then like, you're gonna be left behind.

Anne Sherry 56:38
Yay, for whoever and you develop that. I applaud that part. I

Alison Cebulla 56:42
just don't like how that's so like, you could have fallen apart too. And like a million different ways. Yeah. Yeah. Tell us about the music that you came to love to play and how that's been such a, you know, saving grace. Yeah,

Josh Collins 56:57
that's a really, it's definitely really tied into my parents separation, and just trying to find an escape from all the madness. So I started playing music when I was eight, my parents had just separated when I was seven. And my mom played guitar, she still does, she plays guitar, and she sings. And so I knew that it was an instrument. And I thought, I want to do that. And I remember this vision, it was a dream that I had when I was seven. And then it later just became a daydream that I would just dream about all the time. I was sitting at this campfire. And sitting around the campfire with me was every important person in my life. It was like my brothers were there. Like the neighbor, kids I want to impress, were there that were older than me, my, my parents were there. My mom's boyfriend, my dad's girlfriend, like anybody that I just really wanted their respect. And the scenario that played was me just playing guitar. And for some reason, it was important that I didn't have anything but a guitar, I didn't have a pic, I didn't have a strap, I didn't have it. It was just I all I needed was a guitar. And I could play this beautiful music, and everybody would respect me. Hmm. And that was the story. That was the thing. And so I thought I need that I'm going to ask my mom for a guitar. And on my eighth birthday, she gave me one. And that was just my escape for everything. I remember this one, particularly hard day. I went to my guitar to find solace. And I found it in this chord progression that I came up with, and I didn't know anything about music. So I would just come up with chords. And I'd named them things like why and like T and other letters that aren't musical letters. And and I would just play them over and over again. And like the feelings which build up and build up and, and I would just start bawling. I would just be bawling, playing these chords over and over again. And I remember this one time I was sitting on the balcony, we had a balcony overlooking our backyard. And I was playing this one particular chord progression that I thought was pretty groundbreaking. Yeah, I thought it's pretty cool. And but it also just unlocked a lot of feelings. And I was crying my eyes out. And my mom's boyfriend was home. And he came outside and told me that you know, you know, it was something about how I always knew you were a little girl But now here's the proof. It was like really mean spirited stuff to a crying little boy like you're a little bitch and it stopped doing that. You should not make so much noise. And

Anne Sherry 59:46
you have no idea what I'm doing to the boyfriend and my head right.

Josh Collins 59:51
There was a time in my life where I did honestly want to be a murderer to this person. i

Anne Sherry 59:56
That's

Alison Cebulla 59:59
rare. because I'm just really glad that you said that Josh because and as you know, I had that meltdown last weekend about my childhood sexual abuse, and I called and, and I was like, I just want to murder. I just want to murder. And I feel like we don't give enough room for that kind of rage where it's like, it's not, it's not really socially acceptable. But it's like, I feel like actually feeling that rage has been really helpful and healing on my journey. And I just want to say thank you for sharing that because it helps me. I just have said those feelings are real for me when you share them. So that means a lot. So just thank you.

Josh Collins 1:00:39
Yeah. Yeah, thanks for creating a safe space to chair things like that. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:00:44
Yeah, absolutely.

Anne Sherry 1:00:46
And, yeah, I mean, I did a women's group just to speak of the rage. So like that, if I it was an emotional release thing. And it was like, wait a minute, if I start talking about this, I It's a nuclear bomb is what it literally like inside of me. And there is a way to explicitly I said the entire Yeah, well, I if I let this out, I will destroy the earth. You know, so I mean, this is it is that big inside, like what you had to do? Like, here I was on the story. Like, this is like, where I immediately want to kill your mom's boyfriend. Because I'm sitting here you're talking about you found a way to express your feelings in an in a place that like, it was impossible. And I was like, Yay, he found an outlet. And that mother effer try not to wait as much pain and shut it down. You know, and I know hurt people hurt people. But there is a way to say okay, yes, we have that going on. But we do have to make space so that we know Claudia said it in one in the episode when you when when you know you want to kill somebody rather than killing somebody. That's it. That's a step in the right direction. step

Alison Cebulla 1:02:03
in the right direction. ruin

Anne Sherry 1:02:06
your life by actually

Alison Cebulla 1:02:08
hurt right hurting you too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 1:02:12
right. Yeah, of course. Yes. Exactly. So Oh, yeah. Totally.

Josh Collins 1:02:16
Yeah. And he was the biggest teacher of just not letting people in because he just seemed to take pleasure in in trying to play that that line for me. And so he would, he would? Yeah, totally. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And he would, he would try to buddy buddy with me. And this is a guy that just never showed emotion. He was just very hard, very gruff, very mean person. And he would occasionally show me a little bit of kindness. And I would think, Wow, is it happening? Are we going to be friends hours? Is this great? And then he would almost take pleasure and just tearing it back down and over and over again. And it was it was, it was definitely hugely traumatizing. And I yeah, that was that's bad.

Alison Cebulla 1:03:00
Okay, so here's picture a question that I have. And thanks for sharing that. For our listeners, is it? Like is it like, it was just so overt, and in your face, like what was happening your childhood that you had no choice but to really see it? Because I feel like the other option for a lot for a lot of people, is to adapt a way to view the abuse as love that I don't hear you doing? Do you know what I mean? You know, I'm talking about people who also grew up with childhood just like yours, but they're like, do you and can you help me out? Do you? I mean, I wonder why you have such? Wow, see it so clearly. And maybe that's not for you to answer, but that's where my brain is going. And maybe I just want to know,

Anne Sherry 1:03:41
yeah,

Josh Collins 1:03:43
yeah, I don't know. Yeah, he definitely tried to put that narrative in me many times. You know, there were times I remember a couple different times, we'd be smoking weed in the garage together. And he'd say, you know why I'm so hard on you. Right? He'd say, it's because you have no one around you to teach you these lessons. I'm the only one who's here that can teach you. And another time when he said, You know, I'm so hard on you. Right? It's because, you know, I my little brother died when I was young, and you get to have a little brother and it's not fair. That you get to have a little brother. I don't. So

Anne Sherry 1:04:25
school yard bullied. She totally Yeah, like, yeah, like,

Josh Collins 1:04:29
my mom. It was a really, you know, a lot of kids become their parents therapists but, and I hope I'm not unique in this experience, but my mom would come to me crying, looking for comfort. And one of the things that was a common thing she'd come to your comfort for comfort was looking for validation and forgiveness for exposing us to this kind of abuse. Like she'd almost want to be validated in it. Like, like, she'd come to me and just talk about how bad she felt. If that were all being abused this way, and just asked me almost if it was just okay. And I was just a kid, I didn't know what to do I, my mom's freaking out. It's scary for me. I just wanted to stop. So it's like, yeah, I'm just like, yeah, it's it's good. I'm good. Don't worry about me. I'm fine. You know, but this I just rage would just go inside me like you're doing this. You have the power alone of all of us to stop this. But somehow

Alison Cebulla 1:05:27
she wasn't seeing that power or feeling that power. Not to. This is about you, right? Like, for some reason, and she didn't, she just wasn't she didn't take on that adult role. She didn't feel like the adult in the room.

Josh Collins 1:05:39
For some reason she needed she needed him and he knew it. And he would, he would tell us Yeah, you know, we, we sometimes just stand up to him. And he said, I can do anything I want. Nothing's gonna happen. Wow. Because your mom needs me.

Anne Sherry 1:05:56
Ah, yep. That all happen. You all have an accurate, so So today, Josh, like as your mom. It sounds like you talk. And I mean, you guys, this is a lot to work out.

Josh Collins 1:06:10
Oh, yeah. I sent her range texts, novels law. Like law. And, you know, she always responds, just like the most apologetic, you know, you could possibly be and just say like, you know, you're right, I made all these choices with only myself in mind. And I was it was horrible. And I can't believe I ever made those choices. Time and time again, for all those years. I just don't know, what possessed me to not take action. And, and, you know, I have still have a lot of work to do with all this. Like, it's summertime, how that just, it doesn't really help like her to hear her say that. I mean, it's just like, well, you know, I'm still here picking up the pieces. Yeah. So, you know, and it just, I always felt like she was kind of weak. You know, that was my I was listening to Episode 24 about parental education. And that was how how she felt there was like, Oh, my parents are just not capable of this stuff.

Alison Cebulla 1:07:13
Right. Madeline? Yeah. Well, and tamaraws

Anne Sherry 1:07:18
Grief episode is really important, too. There is a way to like grieve these living relationships. You know, you didn't get the mother or father experience. Yeah, I would do it through a group. If you could.

Josh Collins 1:07:32
Yeah, I would love to I definitely have a lot more work to do. Yeah, yeah. And you guys have been, I think that's one of the big things your podcast has done for me is just showing me that like, okay, there's, there's other people out there and like, there's, there's a responsibility that I have to, to deal with these things so that I can be a team player, so I can be okay. And I mean, it's Yeah, I feel like okay, this is my, this is my journey. My next step is to kind of dig into this and do the do the work. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 1:08:02
Well, and I guess, speaking to the audience to you, somebody who's been doing work since their 20s, it just goes on and on, and people are trapped. You know, I if people are trying to go a lot faster,

Alison Cebulla 1:08:18
that you can only there's no support, there's no timeline, there's no right way to just keep showing up. And I'm right timeline to heal.

Anne Sherry 1:08:25
Now, I kinda was coming to this, this idea about, and I've said this a bunch, but we really are just building our capacity to be with all the hurt parts, because you know, what you describe as you had to develop a lot of layers of defenses to just make it and they're not going to they're not going to stand down very easily. You know,

Alison Cebulla 1:08:47
they don't they're really good defenders. No, no, we're

Anne Sherry 1:08:49
not in the past. Yeah. And they need a ton of appreciation. And I don't know, this is why whatever we're doing, which is opening up, Stephanie's opening up like lots of these doors are getting opened up that we're all we all struggled Yes, our parents struggled. But they can go do their work. But there is a way to be with the impact of the kid and and you don't have to take care of or do the work for your parents or whoever. Oh, sure. Nuclear weapon mad about this shit. It really is. But just find somebody who can hold space for it. This is their groups books. It comes in lots of places. So Wow.

Josh Collins 1:09:31
I remember all the bodily sensations I was feeling when I listen to the first few episodes of the podcast was just like, whoa, I've thought about this and so long and this is crazy. I'm having this physical sensation. I was like, I remember I was like, God, I want to go listen to podcasts. I was like, I'm gonna get out of the house. I'm gonna like go to like a coffee shop and I'm just gonna post up and I'm gonna listen. And I was like, Whoa, big mistake. I should not be outside. Where what am I doing? This is like, Oh my God, I need to be like in my own bed. Oh no.

Anne Sherry 1:10:02
I think all your all your parts were like, We're hearing truth and they flood Yeah. So just know that they're just gonna flood. Nature's a good place to listen to our podcast. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 1:10:13
I don't Josh because you had said like you weren't able to process the grief yet for your cat which there's no right timeline to process that sort of grief just so sure, sure. But yeah, I don't know if you're able to have a really really good cry, but there is nothing that feels better on the whole planet Earth. And, and Josh than a frickin I understand

Anne Sherry 1:10:33
Allison but that's gonna take Josh and I a little longer. I like

Unknown Speaker 1:10:41
whatever you got going on

Anne Sherry 1:10:43
Josh I had I had a Sasabe on Saturday morning that I'm going to write about a case for and case of and for the ugly cry. So stay tuned. The more you get visible with your story and start telling people that it wasn't okay. I mean, just be compassionate. You could watch here for like, don't do it. The more you can cry, you can so I'm

Josh Collins 1:11:09
okay. Yeah. And I've never been more No, I've never withheld my story. I yeah, I've always people ask me, I've always told them. I don't know that I've ever that's like the way I've been practicing it right. It's just okay. Just tell somebody. And then yeah, you know, I'll write it down too. And I, I'll write down the specific stories when they come to mind. And last night, I wrote down a bunch of them because like, Alison had reached out to me and was like, Hey, let's do this thing. And it's like, oh, my gosh, this is so cool. And so I started kind of writing some stuff down. And then all these stories came back. And it was just like, Wow, there's so much down here that I don't, didn't remember until right now. And yeah, yeah, but I definitely carry all that around. And it informs, you know, being able to sit in conflict versus just like, run away and right. Yeah, a lot of different aspects of my life, I feel like are directly correlated. All of them.

Alison Cebulla 1:12:13
Fortunately, or unfortunately, we are the end product of the cumulative year, some strengths that come out of it, I mean, your dedication to your music is a big one and and share a little bit more with us about the music that you make currently, or that you've that you have made.

Josh Collins 1:12:33
Yeah, I got into jazz music when I was in high school. And I just thought at the time, it was kind of like security for me, because everyone said, everyone always said that the jazz musicians are the ones who can do anything, they can play any kind of music, they can be thrown into any situation. They're the best players in the world. They're play jazz. So I thought that's what I want to be. So that's what got me into it. And then I fell in love with it, I found kind of my place in it. And I became I was like the young kid at the college that was playing and all the top groups and I was going to all the college parties and getting drunk and just kind of going wild and but the jazz thing persisted, I play jazz. Now I do working on a project right now that's a tribute to the late Joe pass. He's a great jazz guitarist, who was active in the 40s to the, to the late 80s or so either long career, but most of which he was just heavily addicted to drugs. And the part of his career that I'm focusing on is just after he got clean. He did a really famous solo guitar record. That's just mind blowing ly amazing. And I've learned all the notes from that record. And I'm doing a little bit of like a lecture tour about just him and about second chances and about, you know, overcoming addiction and then finding your place because he wasn't, he was like 40 years old when he put out this record, which I think in our music culture seems a bit old to be making your, you know, your big mark. Right. But I totally disagree with that. And I just think that's such a cool story that he had that he finally managed to get clean and then made one of the most breakthrough records of all time. And so I've kind of gone on talking about

Anne Sherry 1:14:29
that lately. Yeah. Come, I have somewhere you can stay if you want to come to North Carolina, Asheville,

Josh Collins 1:14:35
actually, yeah, that'd be great. I'm already doing some stuff over in the east. In the farm, so I'll try to get something in your neck of the woods and

Anne Sherry 1:14:46
yes, yes, please do. Yeah. Wow. It is so cool to hear from your your what is your generation? What are you?

Josh Collins 1:14:55
Are you a younger Millennial? Millennial? Okay, um, My little brother is Gen Z. Okay. But yeah, my my older brother and I are just the tail end of, of millennials. And then yeah, apart from the jazz thing I play with that band Proxima parada, Allison's boyfriend Kevin is a founding member of. Yeah, and that music I'm really proud to be a part of too, because it definitely focuses on healing and, and healing from trauma. Nick, the lead singer, that who writes most of the songs in his therapy sessions, and his work, personal work has informed a lot of the music, you know, the teachings of tick, not Han, as well as his own experience. Being kind of a child of neglect, I interviewed him, we find a lot of people. Oh, I interviewed him

Alison Cebulla 1:15:49
for another show that I was doing through my work called a better normal, about trauma informed stuff. So I interviewed Nick for that. And he, he was great. He has great stories about healing by you know, writing about his dad's alcoholism and how that helped him heal and process So music is really such a gift that can help us transform emotions. And he was on another podcast called Transforming trauma. So I'll link to that one in the show notes about this, you know, these same topics, but what else were you gonna say

Josh Collins 1:16:21
that you might also link that Well, you might link that song paying for it, as well, because that one is specifically written about his dad's alcoholism, and trying to be just perfect and grateful and normal and just, he's, he's paying for it now. But he's grateful for you know, the journey has taken him on and similarly I wrote a song for the band called grateful and it's about being grateful for all the events in your life because they make who you are. And you mentioned how there were some strengths that came out of my experience and I do feel grateful for the way that I happened to deal with it. I happened to deal with it in a way that left me standing on two feet and left me with a feeling of strength and independence and feeling like no one's going to make this happen for me but me I'm here I can do this so yeah, that was I'm grateful for for the good and the bad because it's left me with a lot of you know just who I am I wouldn't be who I am and you know I don't want to say it was good thing obviously but yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:28
Oh, I remember that no, permanent closer is gonna be right. Oh, right. Only was in muddy brown was down syndrome, God GAAP? I say

Anne Sherry 1:18:34
that in my practice, I wouldn't wish trauma on anybody yet. Here you are. And there are super powers that come out of it if you I mean, not once that you actually want it. That's kind of interesting. Like I don't know if the super the superheroes none of them really asked for the powers in some way. I bet there's a lot going you know, what's his name got bit by a spider Spider Man. Yeah. For Superman. Man, what would that be? Batman is all traumatized. dies. Yeah, so then they already happened. What are you gonna do? It's already happened. So it, but you do need somebody to help you? Well, me, somebody helped me work through it. Anyways, you're doing great, Josh.

Josh Collins 1:19:24
Thanks. And I think I've come to a point where it's, you know, I don't I try not to get too try to I sort of tried to see where my parents were coming from and just all the traumas that they experienced. And I know that they had really limited tools and and no language, no communication, like, they just they had a really rough time of it. And I really blamed them really hard for a long time and and I don't know, I'm just trying to come away from that and be like, how do I how do I move forward, but it's

Alison Cebulla 1:19:56
both at once though. I think it's both at once. It's like the array Ah, is a leftover from childhood when I felt helpless. And that's always like, I just feel it like in my fists and my arms and I'm just like, Oh God, I just want to just I want someone to experience the pain that I felt. And then at the same time not dismissing any of that I can also offer my parents compassion. Like, they don't have the tools like you said, Josh, they have the tools, but like, I guess like I, I always get concerned when in like the it can be like toxic positivity or spiritual bypassing, you know, of just like, wow, that's right. They did their best. I'm like, well, the range is still in there. It's like still in there, you know?

Anne Sherry 1:20:41
not mutually exclusive. Oh, what we're trying to we want it we want to turn I think the lens, eventually start turning the lens on these effing structures that create all this and perpetuate trauma. Do you know? Anyone?

Josh Collins 1:20:57
Yeah, you would want anyone to think, Oh, well, my actions are okay. Because I'm just doing the best I can. And, you know, because I think back to some of those decisions they made and I think like, I you know, I'm an adult, and I would never, ever make that choice. I mean, it's how could How can anybody in their right mind Make a choice like that? And then another choice and another choice and more choices? And it's just, you know, sometimes it blows my mind just how, how could they have ever thought that was cool. And I mean, these are and this also maybe as a good thing to note is that these are functioning people in society. I mean, they're your high school teachers. You would never know. You know, looking from the outside that this was going on and right. Yeah, that's this. Yeah, sometimes I just look back I was like, Wow, I can't I would never do these things.

Anne Sherry 1:21:45
I think this is what we're all trying to blow the lid off is like don't believe it? Don't just everybody's not fine. We live in the sort of this idea that like, we don't want to see emotions we don't want to see so people are so good at Cover up. Cover up. Cover up. Like I used to find say how awesome I was. Yeah. Because some

Alison Cebulla 1:22:09
of us are heady grams with refried beans

Okay, feelings game.

Anne Sherry 1:22:26
Oh, we got to play the game.

Alison Cebulla 1:22:29
We need to get you to ride a tricycle. We need a jingle feelings game jingle. Yeah, okay. Absolutely. All right. Yes. Okay. Yeah, we're gonna pick you on this. We need a little

Anne Sherry 1:22:38
I have record feelings. By the way, man. Glad

Alison Cebulla 1:22:42
and doesn't believe that any of these feelings are feelings. So just wait, we'll do it again. Okay, but so here's what happens Josh. I'm an I have a feelings wheel in front of me has all the different feelings on it. I'm going to put my finger around the circle and you're going to tell me to stop and when I get to a feeling if you consent, you don't have to consent. You will share at a time recently when you felt that feeling and what it feels like in your body. Are you game? Okay, okay. So my finger is going around the circle so just tell me when to stop.

Stop. Respected. Oh, wow. And I knew you were gonna do? Yes. It's a feeling. Yes. Okay, okay.

Josh Collins 1:23:40
That's a fun one to talk about. Yeah. I just recently did a tour with Proxima parada. And at the end of the tour, we did a recording session with one of our favorite artists, Alan stone. And it was a really cool moment for all of us, we all look up to Alan and he had us in his little studio, and we recorded some songs and he sang on all of them. And he really he really enjoyed my playing. And that was really nice. And it felt very very respected and and then the way that the guys kind of kind of sent me off at the end of the tour because they don't live in the same place they just I felt very respected by by just like you know, they were just really happy that I came on the tour and that I I showed up I brought a good attitude and I you know because touring is if you don't already know it's really hard. So yeah, you've got to really dig deep for some of those days and so they you know, it was just nice all around it was like I felt good for being for bringing my all and I felt respected with the way that they acknowledged that I brought my all and it was all good feelings

Alison Cebulla 1:24:48
damn and what does when you tap into that feeling and you like feel what respected feels like what does it feel like in your body

Josh Collins 1:24:57
feels lifted, I feel lifted. But, and yeah, there's definitely an excited kind of almost happy adrenaline a little bit of like, yeah, this. I have friends, partner community. This is great.

Alison Cebulla 1:25:15
That's great. Thank you so much Josh for sharing. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 1:25:18
I could see it in your Yeah. The dreaded

Alison Cebulla 1:25:23
Okay, and

Anne Sherry 1:25:24
I have four feelings. All right. I hope it's mad sad. Glad, bad. So these are they have to rhyme to okay stop

Alison Cebulla 1:25:37
ah, aw a ah ah

Anne Sherry 1:25:48
she says, Did you say aw?

Alison Cebulla 1:25:51
Aw a

Anne Sherry 1:25:52
Debbie like I'm in on in ah I'm in awe. I am not liking this. This is good for you and recently went set whenever I felt it. It is good for me. What's your name? That does the feeling Susan somebody she's like we have like, there's like 2000 or 3000. Like her got a long way to go.

Alison Cebulla 1:26:15
Emotional agility woman.

Anne Sherry 1:26:19
What's her name? Susan. She's from South Africa. Yeah. Stalling stall. Stall.

Alison Cebulla 1:26:25
I'll look her up while you think.

Anne Sherry 1:26:26
Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna. I'm gonna say for Josh. I was in awe of how you are telling your story in this moment? Just how much? Yeah, like somehow I thought like, childhoods didn't happen. If you were born in 94, you didn't have the childhood you're describing. For some reason. I don't know why I was like, Oh, this only happened in the 70s and 80s. So but just the way you speak about it. The way that you found music, the way you're just in relationship with it at this time. And also seeing that you've got more to go is like there's a calmness that you're approaching this with. It feels like so there's certainly some awe and then Allison is going to ask me how I feel in my body. I can feel my heart. Often I don't feel a lot here. But I can feel sensation in my my heart for like, I'm just I really am in awe that you're coming into relationship. Now with this. I don't feel like I'm coming into relationship with it in the level that you are on some only recently, like in the last few years, so like actually telling the truth. So oh, now I'm getting hot up my trauma. I'm

Alison Cebulla 1:27:55
smiling. I'm having a trauma. Oh,

Anne Sherry 1:28:00
I don't it's not true. I call it whenever I get this like hot. This sort of flashes doesn't feel like a hot flash. But I'm getting I'm getting warm.

Josh Collins 1:28:07
But that was super, super nice to hear. Yeah. And also I hope you feel like in from Yeah, I don't know that you guys are doing really important work because I certainly think you are and it's definitely helped me to just feel more in community with all this stuff. Just to listen to you guys's experience and the guests that you bring

Anne Sherry 1:28:26
to something. I felt warm like your community and I didn't feel like ah, I felt

Alison Cebulla 1:28:35
that's progress. That's progress. Yes. Yes.

Anne Sherry 1:28:39
All right. I hope you get a hard feeling though. I have to be a little me.

Alison Cebulla 1:28:43
Okay, Josh, you have to tell me when? Stop. Okay. Oh, fuck, stop. Oh, I thought when you said okay. Do you want me to do to do it again?

Anne Sherry 1:28:57
No, do that. No. If you said Oh, fuck, I want you to do that. Now when you said okay, I was whatever that one was.

Alison Cebulla 1:29:05
Intimate, intimate. I hate that word. Now it's my turn.

Josh Collins 1:29:15
I feel grateful. I'm feeling grateful now that I didn't get into

Unknown Speaker 1:29:24
to me to

Alison Cebulla 1:29:28
let me take time to actually feel this feeling Hold on

I think this is a hard one for me. Because when I like when I think about, like, um, I processed some big trauma last weekend and when I reached out to a couple girlfriends to process it with. I could feel myself bring in some protective parts like some power over it in the way that I talked about it with them. Like, wasn't truly vulnerable or intimate. It was like, aggressive, do you know what I mean? So, um, I think like when I tap, tap into this one, it's it's actually under the category of happy and trusting. But it doesn't bring up happy feelings. For me, it brings up really sad feelings, because I think that there's this underlying thing where it's like not that safe in a lot of spaces for me to be truly intimate, and to just have like big Messy emotions. So when I really tap into it, it's a sadness feeling like of my eyes wanting to cry and a weight and a heaviness behind my eyes and my shoulders coming in and making my chest concave, and feeling like a tightness in the middle of my chest. Which is probably a vagal vagal nerve response that I'm feeling it's kind of like up and down my sternum. And so, if I try and be like, What about intimate when it's good, and you're trusting you're happy, that is hard to access that I realized, like, I have a lot of like, a lot of fucking work to do. But if I could try and just take a deep breath of like the trusting and the happy side of intimate

it's hard. I'm having I'm struggling. Yep. Yep. It's not just doesn't feel like it happens that much. And I have a lot of grief about that. Yep. Feeling good.

Anne Sherry 1:31:52
You started

whatever. Seven minutes of hell.

Alison Cebulla 1:32:13
Josh, thank you for your honesty. Thank you. Oh, my gosh, yeah, getting to the pod and sharing your insights. And

Anne Sherry 1:32:25
I think lighting it's so good. Sounds so good.

Alison Cebulla 1:32:28
Thanks for helping us sound good. I think like your people hearing your story and seeing themselves in it, I know is going to have a really positive impact. And so thanks for starting these conversations. Like you're it's this is important work. And thank you.

Josh Collins 1:32:46
Thank you so much. i It's a huge honor to be to be on your podcast. And thanks for giving me an opportunity to share a little bit about my story. And I'll continue to listen and glean the all the wisdom that you guys share.

Alison Cebulla 1:33:02
And feel free to text us anytime you have a big cry and you want someone to hold space because we're here. Thank you.

Anne Sherry 1:33:10
That's fine. Let somebody know you're not fine. Don't hold it for 40 years and 45 years. 46 years everyone needs an Allison. Otherwise you would hold

space. It's so awesome.

Josh Collins 1:33:41
Your laugh is definitely one of the highlights of the pod for me. Thanks

Alison Cebulla 1:33:45
for seeing my trauma gift.

All right. So thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai